Should Floyd Patterson be criticized for for defending his title against

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015.


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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Machen badly wanted that rematch, its very possible he reverses the result if given a chance.
     
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2015
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2015
    #46
  2. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Patterson's one loss prior to 1958 was to the light-hitting Joey Maxim, a fighter in the mode of Harris and Pastrano.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 20, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 20, 2015
    #47
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    He also suffered 3 knockout losses to Johansson and Liston..big punchers in the mode of Valdes Dejohn and Williams
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #48
  4. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Okay,

    but none of those three men defeated Liston or Johansson or anyone who defeated them.

    Pastrano defeated Maxim, and Harris defeated Pastrano.

    And Patterson later lost to the swift boxing Ellis, who had only a so-so punch.

    Liston is really way above all the other heavyweights of his era except Ali, so losing to him doesn't really make much of a case. Everyone lost to him prior to Ali.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #49
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Valdes, Dejohn and Williams would not be favoured against Patterson. What outstanding win did either have to force a showdown with Floyd?

    All three were behind better contenders. Neither could hold a candle to Ingo and Liston who proved to be considerably better than Folley and Machen.
     
    choklab, Jun 21, 2015
    choklab, Jun 21, 2015
    #50
  6. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Well, outside of Harris I never argued these men as good fighters or outstanding contenders, so I'm not sure why you lashed out at me like that. Do you have some sort of emotional issues on this topic that makes you irrational and lash out at people for things they didn't say? I apologized when I misquoted you, I hope you will do the same.

    If you want my thoughts on the Radamacher, London, and Mcneeley fights, I suggest you view previous posts in this thread, and form a response from what I actually said about them.
     
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    #51
  7. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    I must disagree. At the time of these fights Valdez had already declined with losses to Baker and an absolute trashing by Satterfield.

    I think Holman and Baker are just as valid wins in the late 50s.

    Pastrano in reality, established himself as a genuine contender and was rated above Machen entering 1957. They had been fighting the same cycle of fighters as outlined.

    Valdes had nothing to do with it, he lost to Satterfield who lost to Holman, who Pastrano beat. The Holman win did more for Pastrano, than the Valdes win did for Machen.

    The difference was Tommy Jackson.

    The Jackson win did get Machen his #1 rating but some things to consider.

    It was just months after Patterson gave Jackson a brutal hiding that left him hospitalized for days. Jackson never returned to form. So Machen's huge supposed difference making win was against questionable left overs.

    That's why Machen needed a win over a Folley to truely set himself apart as the outstanding contender. He didn't get it.
     
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This might be true, but it still means Patterson decided to fight the #4 guy, who also hadn't got a win over Folley to set himself apart, instead of the #1.

    These wellsprings of logic only ever spill so far. It's still taking on the #4 instead of someone above him for a reason that is less than great.

    But, it's true that Machen wasn't a million miles ahead of the guys below him. I think it doesn't really hut Patterson, but, on balance, Patterson should have fought Machen.

    When they met much later on, it was remarked upon, the fact that they had never met at the time and should have. It was a theme of the contest.
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2015
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2015
    #53
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, I also have a hard time with the logic that a draw between the top two contenders would mean that those below them in the rankings should suddenly leap above. That neither won is not the same thing as that both lost. Machen didn't strengthen his case as the top contender, but he was still the top contender.
     
    Bokaj, Jun 21, 2015
    Bokaj, Jun 21, 2015
    #54
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Well a declining Valdes absolutely handled John Holman EASILY, so you can't say that.

    Baker was shot by 1957, completely washed up. Hands finished, didnt even train for the harris fight his hands were so injured.

    Really can't see how you can possibly say Holman is on Valdes level when Valdes whipped Holman and beat much better competition than Holman did in the late 50s.

    Yet he rebounded with his some crushing wins over several RING Magazine top 10 guys and earned himself a # 2 ranking in the world in 1958

    Valdes in particular feasted on the european heavyweights, scoring 6 knockouts. He also beat your boy Holman. Henry Cooper and Brian London only lasted one day trying to spar with Valdes

    Holman did more for Pastrano?

    No it didn't

    Valdes came into the Machen fight rated # 3 in the world by Ring Magazine. Holman came into the Pastrano fight rated # 8 in the world by Ring Magazine

    Here is your source

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=F_oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5167,4966332&hl=en

    Admit your wrong Mongoose




    By the way that game your playing I can play it too

    Valdes knocked out Joe Erskine in 1 round. Erskine beat Pastrano

    "Years after the wonderful fencing duel between Erskine and Pastrano, Angelo Dundee acknowledged Erskine as a master of his trade. Dundee had been confident that his man Willie could come back from England with a nice little win on his ledger. “No excuses,” Angelo said. “No cop-outs. Erskine was brilliant and the better man on the night. I was surprised at his skill. If he had only been a bigger man, and if he could have developed a heavier punch, he would have been a world beater. As it was, he beat Pastrano and a lot of other good fighters. Willie and I left England knowing we had to re-think our plans for the future.”
    My father, explaining why that fight continues to stand out in his mind, said, “It was the finest exhibition of classic boxing I have ever seen. They tricked and slipped and feinted each other all night long. They baited each other with all manner of subtle shifts and manoeuvres. It was a master class in boxing at its best and you didn’t want it to end. It was televised at the time and I don’t know whether it is still available or lost in the archives. But it would serve as an excellent training film for any young professional.”
    For Willie Pastrano, the defeat was a psychological blow which continued to nag at him on his return home. He entertained serious thoughts of quitting the game and pursuing less rigorous pleasures. Angelo Dundee had other ideas. Joe Erskine’s lack of size and a commanding punch kept coming back into Angelo’s mind. Pastrano was no less handicapped and he was hardly likely to win the world heavyweight championship. Floyd Patterson was on the throne, Ingemar Johansson had all but killed Eddie Machen and Sonny Liston was thundering across the plains like a charging buffalo. “I boxed heavyweights for four years till I realised Sonny Liston wasn't my cup of tea"
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #55
  11. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Another article saying Machen is out with a bum shoulder.

    http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DS19580618.2.9

    Patterson was approaching a year of inactivity, he needed a challenger.

    Harris was the logical pick. Given Folley was one half of the disappointing Machen/Folley draw that didn't produce a leading contender.
     
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    #56
  12. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    He also was out with an injury.
     
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    The Mongoose, Jun 21, 2015
    #57
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Machen- Folley Draw

    "The twelve-round stalemate resolved nothing and gave world champion Floyd Patterson and his super-cautious manager Cus D’Amato a handy excuse to continue their campaign of picking “safe” challengers"
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #58
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Harris was the logical pick over the higher rated Folley? How does that make sense

    Folley was promised a title shot against Patterson in the fall of 1957

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=u0IDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3118,5394901&hl=en
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #59
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I do disagree with you.

    I don't see how the #1 and #2 drawing makes a guy ranked lower down who is also pretty clear a worse fighter a more logical pick. That doesn't make sense to me. The #1 and #2 are still the #1 and #2 (unless they aren't).

    I don't think this decision kills Patterson or anything; I just think, on balance he should have fought Machen. Clearly this decision was more to do with Cus than anything else IMO.
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2015
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2015
    #60
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