Should Greb be ranked ahead of Tunney?

Nearly everyone here rates Greb over Tunney P4P based on the first few fights and Grebs deeper resume. People assume a bigger man has all the advantages but that isn't always the case. Tunney's loss/losses (depending who you ask) to Greb aren't as bad as Greb's loss/losses to the 17lb lighter Soldier Bartfield. Tunney also probably wasn't prime and a little inexperienced when he first fought Greb and was horribly fouled in the first fight.

Generally speaking Tunney was on average more dominant against the very best opponents he faced than Greb was. Tunney is 1 of the few men who can claim he beat every man he faced, winning the series against Greb and even dominating Dempsey twice. Greb never dominated the series he fought against Loughran, Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Mike Gibbons, O'Dowd, Tiger Flowers, Norfolk

I think there is a good case to have Tunney over Greb on his sheer dominance

 

Undoubtely, imo.

 

Yes.

 

Without any question whatsoever, to me. They're not even slightly close on my list.

 

Id say so his resume is superior so therefore yes. I have a hard time though deciding on what to do with Harry Greb alot of the times for him not having any film to watch.

 

Why is it ok for Tunney to lose to Greb when he may or may not be in his prime (he had been fighting for 7 years when he fought Greb) but its not ok for Greb to lose to Bartfield before Greb was in his prime (forget that you horribly underrating Bartfield)?

Much of your argument is based upon revisionist history: Greb horribly fouled Tunney in the first fight, Tunney won the series, etc etc. You say Greb never dominated his series' with opponents but lets forget that Tunney NEVER faced the level of opposition that Greb did: Greb won his series with Loughran, A very strong argument can be made he won his series with Tunney (would Tunney be 2-1 in the first three fights if they had been held outside his hometown?). Greb was even up with both Gibbons brothers but lets not forget that Tunney wanted no part of Gibbons in 1922 when Greb dominated Tommy, how would he have fared in 1920 when Greb split two fights with him? The newspapers were split down the middle as to who won the ODowd fight and those are ODowds hometown newspapers. Greb was trying so hard to come in under 158 for the title that he spent all night in a steam room the night before and came in at 155, the lowest weight he had weighed in years and he would never weigh that low again. And still half of the twin cities newspapers thought he won including George Barton the most respected writer and referee in the twin cities. ODowd would refuse to fight Greb again for the title. You could also make a strong argument that Greb deserved two of the three fights with Flowers and both of the Norfolk fights. Of Course Tunney would never face Norfolk....

Its funny you state that Tunney was on average more dominant against the very best opponents he faced and then name TWO people Greb and Dempsey as being examples of the very best he fought. The reason why is because Tunney wasnt exactly going out of his way to face top flight fighters. He fought Loughran when Loughran was still fairly green and never would face him again. He had a lot more problems with Weinert the first time around than Greb did almost two years earlier. He refused to Gibbons in his prime. Never faced any black fighter much less Kid Norfolk. In fact prior to facing Greb the best opponent on Tunney's resume was Levinsky who was old and disinterested at that point and still Tunney was less impressive against the ancient Battler than Greb had ever been in dominating their series of fights.

You wanna know why Tunney is ranked below Greb? Stack all of his wins against champions and HOFers next to Greb and Tunney begins to look rather impotent. Then remember that Tunney outweighed Greb by a good 10 to 20 pounds, was younger, taller, had a longer reach AND was fighting most of the fighters when they were well past their prime as opposed to Greb who typically fought them during their prime.

 

I would go further and say that a case can be made for ranking Greb higher on your all time light heavyweight list, without any refference to the weight difference.

 

P4P, yes. Grantland Rice believed that a past peak Greb won the second bout with Tunney. Regis Welsh and NYSAC Chairman William Muldoon also expressed that Greb was robbed, although Muldoon said his commission would abide by the UD ruling of the trio scoring the contest. Gene was clearly superior in fight III, while an argument was made that Greb took nine of ten rounds in the fight IV NC. (If true, this is incredible, as the Marine was coming off his filmed shellacking of Carpentier in July 1924, and was now clearly prime, while Greb was 31, and five years past his peak.) Nobody disputes that Tunney handed Harry a beating in fight V. All told, there seems to be a case for Greb deserving to have won the series with Tunney 3-2.

The Greb we need to be rating though is the 25 year old two eyed monster who went 45-0 in 1919, against the 1928 Tunney of the Heeney fight. Head to head, that's a real challenge for Harry. Pound for pound though, Sailor Harry has it over Marine Gene, and by considerably more than a shade.

 

Two of the Greb-Tunney fights were no-decisions.
Two were decisions for Tunney.
One was a decision for Greb.

So, it's 2-1 for Tunney, and 2 no decisions.
I haven't see any of these fights so I cannot say anything much about the merits of the verdicts.

Tunney was the bigger man by quite a significant amount. Pound-for-pound Greb is generally considered greater by boxing historians, for what it's worth.

 

Well stated .:good

 

And the merits of that second new york decision (tunneys hometown) have been discussed ad nauseum here. As stated, it could very easily be 2-1 for Greb and 1-1 on the ND front giving Greb a 3-2 margin in their series. And that against a past his prime, slower, one eyed Greb who was smaller... Tunney doesnt even have a dog in this hunt.

 

There is no argument for Tunney ranking higher once all the facts (especially the ones involving their series, which may just as easily have gone to Greb) have been laid out. Not even close, really.

 

Have you seen the fights or are you just basing that on newspaper reports ?

 

What kind of question is that?