Should loses matter at all, or is greatness simply about who you beat?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Peppermint, Mar 10, 2015.


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  1. Peppermint

    Peppermint Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Maybe I am in the minority, but I do not think that loses should be held against a fighter, when it comes to his greatness; It should be soley about his wins. Almost all of the greats have lost to lesser fighters in their careers, but it is who they beat, and how, that matters. Ezzard Charles had 25 loses, for example, but he was p4p one of the best, with wins over some of the best fighters to ever grace the ring. The fact that he lost to a couple relative unknowns along the way, and late in his career, should hurt his legacy AT ALL in my opinion.
     
    Peppermint, Mar 10, 2015
    Peppermint, Mar 10, 2015
    #1
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Losses outside of one's prime should not count, especially if they were vs top level fighters. Many of Charles losses happened when he was outside of his prime 1955-1959

    The rest of the losses should matter.
     
    Mendoza, Mar 10, 2015
    Mendoza, Mar 10, 2015
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  3. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    All factors should always be considered. Wins, losses, records, titles held, ratings, names of opponents, amateur accomplishments, etc.. Everyone has their own criteria, but I like to look at the whole picture. If wins were the only thing that counted, and losses were ignored then you'd have men like Buster Douglas outranking guys like Larry Holmes.
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 10, 2015
    mr. magoo, Mar 10, 2015
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  4. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    Losses should obviously be included. However I think the prime version of the fighter is the one that should be scrutinized the most. and what they did during that period of time.
     
    tommygun711, Mar 10, 2015
    tommygun711, Mar 10, 2015
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  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah, I agree, losses IN THEIR PRIME need to be considered.
    Of course, some people make the excuse for that a fighter was "past prime" or "pre prime" or something to dismiss inconvenient losses.
    Obvious example, Tyson got knocked out by Douglas in his prime and millions of fans cannot accept that, so he becomes outside his prime for that one.
     
    Unforgiven, Mar 10, 2015
    Unforgiven, Mar 10, 2015
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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think losses that reveal weaknesses are always of interest. For example, I'd consider that Lennox Lewis was pre-prime for Oliver McCall (meaning he became a better fighter after that fight). But that still taught us about Lewis. On the other hand, blind Langford's run in is almost totally irrelevant in appraising him, just like it won't matter when Huck smashes the smile out of Roy Jones :-(
     
    McGrain, Mar 10, 2015
    McGrain, Mar 10, 2015
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  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah, and in case we weren't paying attention Lewis showed us some more by getting starched good and proper by Rahman.
     
    Unforgiven, Mar 10, 2015
    Unforgiven, Mar 10, 2015
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  8. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    They matter, but wins matter a lot more. If that makes sense. You can't take away a win over a great fighter if they were in their prime. No matter how many losses they accumulate.
     
    tinman, Mar 10, 2015
    tinman, Mar 10, 2015
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  9. tinman

    tinman Loyal Member Full Member

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    There are also many fans and media who put perceived skills higher than resume on the rating criteria rubric.

    They've lost their minds IMO, but hey those people exist.
     
    tinman, Mar 10, 2015
    tinman, Mar 10, 2015
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  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    In his prime.

    But even that result, in isolation, it doesn't mean that much. If he got meat-hooked by a huge Rahman right aged whatever, and that was his only "relevant" loss, Lewis doesn't have a vulnerable chin.

    You need the pre-prime loss to promote understanding of the fighter.
     
    McGrain, Mar 10, 2015
    McGrain, Mar 10, 2015
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Having said all that, it's who you beat that is the starting point in any thrashing out of status I think.
     
    McGrain, Mar 10, 2015
    McGrain, Mar 10, 2015
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  12. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    True. Brian Neilson retired with a better looking record than most, but I doubt many will remember him years down the road.
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 10, 2015
    mr. magoo, Mar 10, 2015
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  13. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Kinda a weird premise to make... If losses don't matter.. then how are wins even remotely as important? Who you win and loss to determines the strength of your resume and accomplishments... If losses don't matter then overall perspective is lost when deciding how significant a win is. Duran beating SRL was important because SRL hadn't lost yet just as much as it was who SRL had beaten at that point.
     
    KuRuPT, Mar 10, 2015
    KuRuPT, Mar 10, 2015
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  14. AlFrancis

    AlFrancis Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Bit of both, depends what company your boxing in.
     
    AlFrancis, Mar 10, 2015
    AlFrancis, Mar 10, 2015
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  15. CONSTAR

    CONSTAR Boxing Addict banned

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    Great thread it's all about were the loses in prime, was the fighter in 100% fighting shape, was there any foul play in the fight and were they avenged.
     
    CONSTAR, Mar 10, 2015
    CONSTAR, Mar 10, 2015
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