Should Louis have fought more than two black men in his 26 title defenses?

I posted that three times.

 

For a world heavyweight champion, Joe Louis was very active during his reign. It is true that he fought some less than stellar opponents in his title defenses, but to prop up Lem Franklin and Elmer Ray as potential black challengers which Louis avoided is silly. Franklin and were contenders for only a short period of time at best while being far less than impressive during the rest of their careers.
Did Louis have to fight all less than stellar challengers after fighting others of the same caliber? That isn't much to base to a title challenge on.

Franklin had 1 draw and lost 13 times, 8 by stoppage, in 48 known bouts. Ray had 5 draws and lost 17 times, 9 by stoppage, in 108 known bouts, not a terrible record at first glance. However, Ray's record was padded to an extreme degree.

- Chuck Johnston

 

the 1976 Ring Record Book had the odd in heavyweight championship fights to that point. I can't speak for the accuracy, but this is the odds on all of Louis fights. I have re-arranged the challengers in the order of their being considered the toughest challengers in the sense of shortest odds

1-----Max Schmeling 9 to 5
2-----Lou Nova 13 to 5
2-----Joe Walcott (rematch) 13 to 5
4-----Billy Conn (1946) 14 to 5
5-----Billy Conn (1941) 18 to 5
6-----Tommy Farr 5 to 1
7-----Bob Pastor 6 to 1
7-----Buddy Baer (1941) 6 to 1
9-----Tony Galento 8 to 1
9-----Arturo Godoy (2nd) 8 to 1
9-----Abe Simon (1942) 8 to 1
12----Tami Mauriello 9 to 1
13----Jack Roper 10 to 1
13----Arturo Godoy (1st) 10 to 1
13----Red Burman 10 to 1
13----Buddy Baer (2nd) 10 to 1
13----Joe Walcott (1947) 10 to 1
18----Nathan Mann 12 to 1
19----Johnny Paycheck 12 to 1
20----John Henry Lewis 15 to 1
21----Abe Simon (1941) 18 to 1
22----Harry Thomas 20 to 1
22----Al McCoy 20 to 1
22----Gus Dorazio 20 to 1
22----Tony Musto 20 to 1

Big surprise here was that Simon's odds shortened so much for his second fight, while Baer's lengthened.

Roper's odds are also surprisingly short--he was a Hollywood actor though, and perhaps the rich Hollywood actors put some money down on him and brought the odds down.

 

seems crazy that nova came out second on that list

 

He had stopped Max Baer twice

beaten Farr

and drawn with Pastor

 

i know, but if asked who had bigger odds, walcott2 or nova, i would have been very wrong

 

Their odds were actually even. I made a mistake in my original post in putting Walcott at 3, but have edited him into the second #2.

Just an old man's error.

 

"Both of those guys were heavily thought of as being dead meat."

Not Conn.

Only Schmeling, Nova, and Walcott in his rematch were considered better contenders.

 

Dubblechin's posts of primary sources do indicate that an eventual Louis-Franklin fight seemed to be on the table.

One can claim WWII would have prevented it, but this is really hindsight. We are judging on what we know eventually happened. The situation was fluid in the months immediately after Pearl Harbor and folks didn't know what the final decisions would be about sporting events.

Also it is interesting that this Franklin-Pastor fight was not promoted by Mike Jacobs.

What influence at all did Jacobs or Louis' management have on making this fight?

It would appear none.

 

Many far more worthy contenders than Lem Franklin and Elmer Ray had a terrible time getting world title shots in various weight classes during the 1940s. Would you consider Franklin and Ray to be as good as Sugar Ray Robinson, Ezzard Charles, Jake LaMotta, Archie Moore, Charley Burley, Holman Williams or Eddie Booker? Heck! I think that I barely scratched the surface in listing far far better fighters who were in the same boat during the decade.

- Chuck Johnston

 

An issue I want to touch on even though the thread is at last dead.

"John Henry Lewis was blind"

He had impaired vision in one eye. He came into the Louis fight having won 30 of 31 and as the light-heavy champion.

After the Louis fight, he signed to defend his title against Dave Clark in Detroit, and later Len Harvey in London.

In Michigan it was discovered "the sight in his left eye was 'almost nil' from 'probable traumatic cataract.'"

The AP on March 23, 1939 quoted Lewis

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"It is true that I had slight trouble with one eye." He said the eye was injured in a 1935 fight against Abe Feldman. "That dates four years back," Lewis said, "but it didn't prevent me from winning the title from Bob Olin and I don't know how many other fights."

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Well, if Lewis is accepted as truthful (he really should know), he was "blind" for his whole title reign and for most of his big fights.

Lewis in another article was asked about Joe Louis and gave this reply, which I think is very interesting because it turned out to be so accurate:

"Of course if Joe don't retire, somebody in the end will beat him. But it won't be a slugger. It'd be a great boxer with a stiff enough punch to make Joe respect it, and he'll win the title by decision."

Pretty good description of Walcott and Charles and what happened.

*Marciano was a slugger, but Louis was very old by then.

 

Excellent post!:good

 

They referenced that in the Times article on the Louis-Nova fight I posted on the previous page.

Entering the Nova fight, some thought Joe Louis was burning out. He was making the eighth defense of his title in 10 months. Simon had lasted 13 rounds. Buddy Baer had dropped him. Conn was leading when he was stopped late. Plus Louis was having personal problems at home and going through a divorce.

As the fight approached, Nova seemed like the right guy at the right time to do the trick against a fighter who was losing his edge. But Louis got his second wind that night. He pounded Nova. Destroyed Baer in one next time out. And his popularity hit yet another level.

The odds in the Nova fight just reflected that general feeling.

 

This is a great post. I would only add that for all of the "Lewis was blind when he fought Joe Louis" B.S. people should remember that John Henry Lewis never went blind, before, during or after his career. He EVENTUALLY lost the sight of ONE eye later on. But when he fought Lewis he had FAILING eyesight in one eye, his other was fine, and he had been like that for a long time. John Henry Lewis, two good eyes or no, was never beating Joe Louis.