Should Mickey Walker be considered the #1 head to head at 147?

What Duran did against Hagler was the best he could have done at 32, 25 pounds above his best weight and at that juncture of his career. I think that Duran's stand-off and angle and counter strategy was the stuff of genious (Leonard and Dundee relied parts of it for their own strategy against Hagler). However, I think it proves behind any doubt that the best MW version of Duran could not beat Hagler.

To get cut you gotta get hit. Hell, if you come in dehydrated (I don't know that he did... but it may be a decent inference), your skin loses elasticity and is more susceptible to cuts. The fact that he was Irish didn't help there either. They were both losses and among the last of his fights at WW.

147 is not necessarily perfectably doablefor Walker. You are making an assumption. I think that the trajectory of his career suggests otherwise -that would be a more solidly grounded assertion. Fighters have varying constitutions and 1 pound can make a difference.

... or perhaps the arguments are too weighty to really attack...

I was hoping that you'd appreciate that rare photo that I uncovered for my avatar. I am a fan of Mickey Walker and consider him to be among the strongest fighters ever, and the most impressive with handling larger men. More impressive than Duran and far more impressive than Toney and Jones put together. I will also argue with anyone that he would mutilate and destroy Floyd Mayweather and just for laughs would end that bout with... a check hook.

 

You've made very valid points across the board, and it seems that we agree on some of them. Your analogy of this fight, is how I would guess at a fight between the two at middleweight would unfold...at that weight it would be fought at a closer distance, and Walker would outwork Duran.
But we are talking welterweight...
Would Walker 'out Duran' Roberto at 147lbs? Yes, I feel he would! That can concluded from watching the film as you said. Walker is an entirely different animal in the ring, than what Duran encountered with Leonard, Palomino, Cuevas, Moore, etc... Walker is a hard minded, never say die competitor who would not quit to save his life! He told Kearns after the Schmeling torture,"You're the one who quit Doc, NOT ME!"...This is who Duran is facing...
Okay...That being said.
Let's talk about fighting distance in this fight...We both agree Walker would be the overall stronger fighter on the inside. I'll concede that because Walker is one special fighter...You stated that you could see Duran being forced onto the backfoot against a volume puncher who excels at body punching...The fight would be a chest to chest affair...Which eventually would lead to a stoppage win for Walker.
For this to happen, Duran would have to be very stationary, and not have any other choice then to engage Walker...I'll give you Duran fought in a more stationary manner relying on defense and guile to capitalize on opponents mistakes when he fought the larger men at junior middle and middle. Question: How immobile was Duran in his welterweight fights? He wasn't. That is the main difference in the Duran at light/welter versus the Duran at JM/middle. At welter, Duran still had the ability to close distance for offense and either slip and counter or get out of firing range (consider that Walker is not a larger, rangier man). Duran's mobility is a huge factor IMO on the outcome of this fight.
It seems we agree that if it goes to the cards, Duran may take it...So how does Walker impose his strength on Duran enough to gain a stoppage victory? In Duran's two definitive stoppage losses...Hearns blitzed him with breathtaking speed and power (at junior middle). Does Walker have that kind of speed or power? I don't think so...Joppy? Duran was closer to fifty than forty for that fight...nuff said.
Walker would have to do what you stated, he'd have to grind Duran down. That of coarse is predicated on his being able to find Duran on a consistant enough basis to accomplish this...Duran never lost in this manner ever...never mind close to his prime.
Duran would engage Walker, and it would be a tremendous fight...but Duran's mobility allows him to choose when and how he engages. He has the skillset (which he has demonstrated against very good fighters) to stay out of the pit with Walker...In order for a strength advantage to work for you, you need to be able to impose it. Duran's mobility would not allow Walker to set as he would wish. Even at close range, wouldn't Duran be effective enough to spin and gain angles with Walker? It would be a chess match in there to be sure...But how does Walker break down a mobile foe who is also adept at inside fighting?(and who happens to be an ATG in his own right)
Does Walker possess the footspeed to track down Duran, and hurt him to the point of a stoppage? Nothing in Walker's welterweight record would support him being able to accomplish this against one of the best all time.
I maintain it's Duran by decision.

 

That match-up is a thinking man's bout. Everyone thought it was going to be warfare, but it wasn't. It was a chess match.

Walker and Duran have similar ring personas for the causal fan -both are considered alley warriors. But they had a vast array of subtle skills that are hidden in all that aggression.

If Walker did suffer a butt in that bout, okay, but your comments about Walker being there to be hit doesn't help your argument. Duran, you seem to be conceding, was defensively superior. He could punch at WW and would land on Mickey more than Mickey would land on him.

I don't think that Walker was so easily hittable as the press suggested, do you?

...okay. That only further confirms the argument here. Walker missed the WW limit by a pound and obviously had trouble making it. I hold that he was too drained and weakened at WW to have enough to defeat Montreal Duran. He aged out of that division in no time.

By the way, just to demonstrate consistency, I'd choose Gomez and Barrera over Duran at Superbantam.

 

We can agree to disagree. But I want to chat about a few points first...I agree with 4 out of five of your closing points.
I agree.
-Given his experience Walker would be an expert at forcing the fight.
-Walker is the puncher in the fight.
-Walker cannot be stopped by Duran.
-Walker cannot be discouraged in this fight. (That's what makes him special)

I should have clarified this re Duran's mobility...I wasn't implying Duran would attempt to emulate Ray Leonard with his movement (I've never seen Duran fight in that manner...I didn't think I'd have to explain that but there it is.) What I meant was Duran would be relatively close to Walker looking for opportunities to counter Walker and his wider punches, mobility in this case, would be the ability to get punching room and slide on angles, instead of meeting the bull like Walker in a straight line...I believe the openings would be there for Duran. Benny Leonard was a very mobile fighter, not just in a sense of 'getting on the bike', Leonard would use his opponent's momentum against him,a push on the shoulder,or back for positioning for an angle to attack...Duran also did this...and he had it down to a science. A 'sweet' science.
It's true that Duran wouldn't discourage Walker, not with Mickey's mindset. But Duran would be scoring more than Walker in the exchanges IMO...I'll stay with my position that Duran is the more refined defensive fighter.
I no longer see your assertion that Walker wins by KO(?)
When you state that Walker is a 'pure march forward killing machine', it sounds as though you are the one being a little naive.With all due respect (I sincerely mean that, this is a fun thread...Thanks to you!) Do you think that Walker is just going to cruise through one of the best all round fighters in history? Throw nonstop punches for a solid fifteen rounds, shake off everything Duran throws at him with sheer impunity? and then never gets tired? C'mon! I'm not buying that at all! This is a very close fight in my book. That goes against all logic, in the consideration of these fighters, their respective fights against great competition, and their regarded place in history. Both would clearly feel the effects of this fight!
Is Walker the second best offensive fighter Duran has ever faced? That is debatable, not necessarily from a sheer power standpoint, but from a standpoint of fluidity and speed...Duran faced some excellent speed and combination punchers...He has seen speed, technique, and yes power, throughtout his career...and was again, very adept in dealing with those opponents from a defensive standpoint. Is Walker more of an offensive threat than Ray Leonard? Ray is not regarded as a tremendous puncher, but with his power and speed, he is formidible. Ray stopped his opponents in his biggest fights at the welterweight limit. Did Walker manage to do that? Walker's opponents were not tougher than Leonard's I'm certain.
I do feel with Walker's aggressiveness and punch output, he can and will give Duran hell...but could he maintain that while getting hit more often...The main factor that Duran has over Walker is his defensive ability...the bottom line is that he will score more blows. He isn't able to discourage Walker one iota...but he does outpoint him. IMO.
McGrain, this has been fun...and thank you for being such a good sport for hashing and rehashing this with Stonehands and myself. If you want to continue with this, I'm game...Otherwise we'll agree to disagree.
Cheers! :good

 

One little detail that not a lot of people know.

Schmeling threatened to quit in the last round if the reff did not stop the fight.

He was afraid he might kill Walker.

Years later he was a guest at the Louis Farr title fight. Various champions were lined up for the usual roll call. Schmeling walked past Jack Sharkey, Max Baer, Tommy Loughran and others, right up to Mickey Walker and shook his hand.

 

The question is too complex for a yes or no answer.

Walker clearly did things that no other welterweight champion came close to outside of Barbados Joe Walcott. He beat most of the top heavyweights of the period and was ranked No4 at heavyweight when he met Schmeling. He held former heavyweight champion Jack Sharkey to a draw. In his next fight Sharkey would beat Primo Carnera.

I dont think that Robinson or Leonard could have done what Walker did.

On the flip side Walker outgrew the welterweight division fairly young and that should be taken into acount:

A. When matching him at welterweight with other ATGs.
B. When ranking him at welterweight.

Personaly I consider Walker a clear cut top 5 all time welterweight.

 

We agree here more or less.

Thus our contention. It's been noted.

It was a point of logic. I do not think that WW Walker was "Walker enough" if you will, to deal with Duran. South of LW, Duran was not yet "Duran enough" to cross swords with the lighter greats.

 

what was his record against good WW what did he achieve at WW.

He does not get a top spot at WW because of his record against fighters in other divisions