Should Sumbu Kalambay rank above James Toney?

No becuz he beat Nunn and Kalambay didnt

 

:rofl:rofl

Thank you.

 

Well, Kalambay beat McCallum and Toney didn't.

Toney going up against HWs and being succesful on occassion probably cinches it for him as far as record is concerned IMO.

I think Kalambay edges him in pure quality, though. Yes he got caught cold by Nunn, but you can't judge a fighter all too much on one moment in one fight. Had he got the fights he should have in his prime I think he could have amassed a frighteningly good record. The one he's got is far from shabby as it is.

 

Toney has the better record, Kalambay may well beat him prime for prime though

 

Kalambay was a better middleweight and more talented fighter both at their best imo.Though Toney is excellent on his day at 160 or 168.

Toney obviously has much greater longevity as a contender, but the time during which both were genuinely excellent fighters is quite close...circa 5 years.A bit more for Toney if you include his brief Cruiser resurgence circa Jirov.

Toney's comeback at heavy could well push him over the edge in rankings against a lot of other fighters who were otherwise excellent for a similar time to his "p4p" days.Especially if you are trying to do a balanced ranking taking absolutely everything like longevity and number of rated contenders fought etc into account.

Kalambay on the other hand is someone who at least for me would or SHOULD rate much higher on the H2H lists everyone seems to like.

So overall i wouldn't argue with anyone putting Grimace higher on their P4P top 500 or whatever, i would do it myself but i'd probably rate the former miner and electrician higher on a middleweight list or head to head.


And i don't agree with Butt saying he's overrated around here.He mgiht be more respected than he was 5 or 10 years ago in the internet boxing community, but he's still not a fighter who has captured the interest of many; still has a good bit of off handedness or disrespect thrown his way and only a small amount of posters that ever bother to talk about his fights in any detail, with actual focus on him and not just related to McCallum or Nunn etc. Give it another 3 or 4 years.

That's kind of what i liked about him back in the day though.He's one of those middleweights that never gained any hype, one- like Archer or even a Benvenut(or countless other contenders) now are for younger generations- thatis just sort of there.Easy to pass by or ignore if you don't rate or aren't interested...and aren't shoved down your throat as someone of importance or great natural ability you should be studying and appreciating.Instead if you saw something that you liked, you had to make a bit more of an effort to get more fights, to really come to terms and learn the style, strengths and weaknesses in the absence of being told/constantly hearing about it all from other sources that can potentially colour opinions in all manner of ways..even turn you against a fighter before you've given them a chance.

ah, this has turned into a vague, incoherent rant on my dislike for the way the boxing community hypes and promotes fighters rather than anything about either fighter per se.yet both are good examples of what i'm getting at, one you can judge for good or ill from a fairly blank slate the other you have to sift through a mountain of bull**** and hyperbole because he was a personality that caught the imagination initially.That's not to say he can't back it up at times, of course he can, but with a blander different personality, or been a sub lightweight fighter i doubt he would have drawn anywhere near as much interest post-mid 90s.

That's maybe something you could say about Pachilles man Duran too, though his bloated past prime days were a lot more condensed in general than Toney's, with better performances mixed in there.

 

****, not even sure if any of that made the slightest bit of sense.

 

"i like sumbu because he was a good fighter with lots of notable qualities but because of his relative obscurity he was never hyped to death or endowed with a fanbase telling you how brilliant he was. infact sumbu was so underrated that even the guys that know their stuff and have a generally good measure of the middes don't really talk about him much which is just delicious. I hate reading verbal fellatio of well known successful boxers. People who buy into this fellatio often demonstrate a poor grasp of boxing skill and fighting styles"

strangely, nothing about sumbu kalambay as a fighter

 

Well played my equally cynical friend:good

I've posted plenty of stuff about him on here over the years both of a technical nature and otherwise.Not even because he's a particular favourite, but because i had stuff to say and wasn't talked out on the subject.

Didn't feel the need and couldn't be arsed here though.

 

Like your avtar!:good

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzocvh60xBU[/ame]

 

Hell, No.:-(

MR.BILL:hat

 

Kalambay might be able to outslick James since he is more laid back

 

Well I was won over on the first word in response :

 

I sort of agree with this except:

1. Well yes and no, he's better in some ways definately, arguably handled McCallum better but then again was McCallum at his best for that 1 or a bit flat. Hate to go back to the Nunn fight, but the mistake he made in getting ko'd was as if he'd never fought a leftie before. It's also safe to say Toney has the better chin of the 2

2. I'm not sure I do actually, I think Jirov was B Class personally and made to measure for Toney in many ways (except the workrate)

3. The interesting argument of longevity against absolute elite boxing performances. Toeny's time at CW and HW was solid stuff but we all know it was half a tank of gas stuff that wouldn't quite cut it against the creme de la creme

4. Going back to point 1, styles make fights, to an extent I agree and I think he's beat men in some people's top 5s, who's the best fighter (or should I say recognised greatest) you want to go out on a limb and say Kalambay beats?

 

No way, Kalambay was a cleaver boxer and a good fighter but Toney is a different level I believe..