Should Sumbu Kalambay rank above James Toney?

Watch both men's performances against McCallum, it should change your mind, Toney wasn't a different level, he had a logner career and benefited from being American and network friendly, where as Kalambay suffered from being a ******* with little support imo

 

Who is better could be argued all day i suppose, different question than who should be ranked above(at least depending on your criteria for rating fighters).I don't think he made some sort of ridiculous beginners mistake against Nunn, overcommited to a jab before he had got Nunn's punching speed and general reaction time down, just one of those marginal mistakes that can result in a KO from time to time in boxing even to the elite as Archie Moore would testify.I'd say it was underestimating the speed Nunn could get a punch off that was the key **** up...an orthodox fighter with the same hand and foot speed could have got a right hand over the top in just the same.

Incidentally, while i agree Toney has the better jaw it's a pity Nunn rarely ever even attempted to commit to those sort of powershots.Toney wasn't invulnerable to a well delivered quick shot down the pipe as Reggie Johnson showed.That lazy approach to his abilities are why Nunn won't be considered an all-timer in the end though.

as far as H2H goes, i don't do lists but i tend to think from fighters were there is enough footage available to get a handle on, that there are a good number of middles on a similar level outside of the very top men.Kalambay is right there among them, though i might be inclined to put towards the bottom end of the "excellent middleweights" group if we include stuff outwith H2H.

Who would i pick him to beat? It would be easier just to pick who i think would beat him much more often than not....Hagler, Monzon and Jones jr, though i feel the former two are well capable of an Ortiz-laguna\Duran Dejesus\Al Brown-Sanstol etc loss were someone of sufficient quality to catch them on a less than 100% night...kalambay and a number of others could have turned that trick.Hagler can be criticised for his ring-generalship in certain fights, but i feel he matches up well technically(jabbing proficiency/style being key)and workrate wise to consistently grind out competitive but clear victories.

 

Kalambay suffered imo from being brought along too slowly in his early career, being nearly 30 by the time of the Kalule fight. A bit similar to the other Italian import (of the time) LaRocca, though Kalambay was obviously in the elite class whereas LaRocca never really was despite getting the big buildup that Kalambay never got. Just the one fight in America against Duane Thomas that he was probably never going to get the nod in. It even seems that Graham's team only gave him the second crack at the European title that brought him to wider attention because they thought he was a bit of a soft touch based on their respective handlings of Kalule. Don't know if he was Graham's mandatory or not, being as I am unaware of the then-rankings , but you have to fancy that it would've been Graham getting the fight with Barkley had he and his team not made such a costly error of judgement. Graham himself was a bit of a persona non grata at the time, something that you might think he and his management should have been able to spot in another fighter. Perhaps Kalambay's relative obscurity helped him here for once as it later did to quite the lesser extent against McCallum.

As to the actual question of the thread, it comes across - as people have already said - as being reasonably obvious that Kalambay at his best would have likely stood a good chance of tying Toney into knots (though Toney's power would have kept him in with a shout despite Kalambay appearing to be pretty resilient outside of the Nunn car crash). I'd also say that his record stands up to reasonably well in comparison despite his relative latecoming to prominence and Toney's own longevity. If I'm allowed to be self-indulgent and use my own opinion of the Kalule fight and the McCallum rematch as well as being a bit liberal with the odd name, we have something like this for a win column:

Drayton
DeMarco
Kalule
Graham x2
Collins
McCallum x2
Barkley
Sims
DeWitt
Dell'Aquila
Seillier

Not half bad at all really and it could have been much better and so on and so forth if things had been different blah blah blah.

Btw, does anyone know about the fight with Thomas as to whether the decision was on the up and up? Apparently Kalambay's only fight on American soil apart from Nunn. Never been able to find out much about it really.

On a final note, I think that one of my first threads on here was something like 'who is the best fighter you'd pick Kalambay to beat?' or something along those lines. Provided some interesting answers did that one.....

And on a secondly finally final(ish) note, I've never for the ****-eyed life of me been able to correctly type the word 'Kalambay' first time in one go without ballsing it up (and that includes this one). Never. Not once. ****ing Kalbamay and Kalamaby and other similar travesties of hand-eye co-ordination and keyboard skills. Drives me ****ing batty it does, especially in a post like this one with so many references to his name in it :twisted::twisted::twisted:. 90% of the time it's just taken to type all this bollocks was spent on rectifying eponymous spelling **** ups.

 

It's comical in retrospect how the Italians got it so wrong between Larocca and Kalambay.

It must have been LArocca's Ali shuffle.

 

Have a butchers at this lora, not so much lost in translation as found scalped and murdered....

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nino_La_Rocca&ei=2ufeTc_1IomohAfku5HCCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dnino%2Bla%2Brocca%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D619%26prmd%3Divnso

Edit: seems to sum up the misguided attitude to Nino at the time quite well.

 

Everything taken into account Toney has to rank above him but Kalambay was special. Toney's depth tips it. But both guys at their respective bests at 160, I veery well might favor Kalambay.

Starting to really get into late 80's and 90's Middleweights lately, what a division and Kalambay was one of the best of them. Both of these guys were true boxing masters, sadly not a lot of them around any more :-( I love the Kalambay jab.

 

I'm not denying that Kalambay was talented, but Toney was a major force in Boxing for quite awhile, now maybe I am missing something in Kalambay but the question was should he rank higher then Toney correct? I have seen the Mccallum fights I own both of them as well as his fight vs Nunn... I don't see how you could rank him above Toney.. Toney was a great fighter at many different weights and had a long successful career I don't see where the argument even is here to me its not even a question...

 

At 160 its debatable..... 168 and beyond? No way, Jose.... Toney rules there....
:think
Kalambay no matter what AIN'T gonna box and last numerous rds with "Holy, Ruiz, Rahman & Oquendo." NO!!:-(

Toney is master over Kalambay.....:deal

MR.BILL:hat

 

Yes. I have them pretty much neck-and-neck, although Kalambay has the best single win (McCallum 1), as well as two wins over Graham as well. Still ain't seen the Kalule fight, but he was a top notch operator (and a nightmare for most) and it's suppossedly very close (no Tiberi anyways!) He also beat Collins and Barkley handily as well. I rank Kalambay in the 2nd half of my top 10 middleweights, he had a solid run there and displayed a proficient, impenetrable style.

Except for Nunn, 'the anomaly' ;-)

Toney was an old timer that gets credit for being a top ten heavyweight as a fat blob getting by on sheer toughness and natural ability, and his wins over Nunn, series with an ageing McCallum (some close ones there, no shame in that but hardly Sumbu-esque performance) and Jirov make up for his forgettable 175 tenure and his trouncing at the hands of Jones (no shame in that, but seriously one-sided) but don't see him supercede Kalambay IMO. Montell Griffin is fairly underrated IMO, he gave Roy hassle in their first fight, but as I say, Toney, to trump Kalambay, needs more consistency IMO.

In terms of ability they're totally different but both extremely capable defensive specialists. In a H2H matchup Sumbu would box rings about Toney, all wrong for him.

If 'the anomaly' hadn't happened, this discussion would be moot ;-)

 

True. This puts it in a somewhat different light.

 

No he wasn't.

 

Kalambays resume shits all over Floyd Mayweathers, for instance. As does his technical ability.

 

I agree with most of that and just rewatched the Nunn fight several times, I did think he put his lead inside Nunn's feet and he did a bit but Nunn was the 1 who stepped over to his right. Still to get a jab going against against a southpaw you really need to circle away from that left hand to his right. Maybe Kalambay was caught cold too a big punishment from a mistake. Still Nunn's speed and ridiculous proportions may always have been too much

I'm sure he'll take solace in his superior punch picking against lefties (I've set up a counter for you there)

 

What, Kalambays far more cultured left hand? ;-) Kalambays lefties were far, far more trickier than Corley and Zab as well :tong