SHOULDN'T have been world champions.

I think we're being a little too hard on Billy Backus here. Although not proving himself as titleholder, losing it in an immediate rematch, he certainly did deserve the title fight. He had broken in the top ten the previous year by splitting 4 bouts with top contnder Percy Pugh and then amidst a winning streak he beat the #1 contender Manny Gonzalez. What more can a fighter do for their title shot? Pipino Cuevas certainly did not deserve his title fight, but went on to become a great welterweight champ. I find, meeting your criteria the most (besides Luis Santana of course) is Arnold Taylor. Taylor was South African featherweight champ and hadn't fought at bantam in 4 years. What business did he have getting a shot at 118? Romeo Anaya must've been looking for an easy defense and found one. He decked Taylor 4 times before Taylor landed a Hail Mary right hand in the 14th. Taylor got trounced in his first defense against Soo Hwan Hong. I think he hit the canvas a good few times in that bout too.

Scartissue

 

I agree with you on Marcel Thil being France's best fighter..As a prisoner
in the second World War ,Thil was tortured by the Nazi's..
He beat amongst others Lou Brouillard,Len Harvey, Gorilla Jones in his
impressive record...What Thil lacked was Carpentiers handsome looks
and charisma...But he was a tough and very strong middleweight who I believe would have licked Marcel Cerdan.IMO...

 

Montell Griffin, why?

He has two wins over James Toney and was neck and neck with a prime Roy Jones in their first match.

Also he won every round aginst Dariusz until it was prematurely stopped over in Germany.

Montell Griffin was pretty good.

 

I agree. Thil was immensely strong and rugged and he got ripped by the American press for winning some of those bouts on fouls (and I admittedly bought into this) but when you actually watch these bouts he was kicking the **** out of those guys and they fouled for legitimately and for a reason: They either wanted out of the ring with him, or they wanted to do anything to keep him off of them. Ive got all the footage I know to exist on Thil he was damn impressive. Another thing people forget when comparing him with Cerdan (because they were so close together in eras) is that Thil was fighting a better class of fighter than Cerdan ever did. Yes Cerdan looks good but look he was fighting. Other than LaMotta (who he looked bad against) and a very worn out Zale every scrap of footage we have on Cerdan is him against someone who wasnt even worth talking about. Personally I think Robert Villemain, and Laurent Dauthille fought a better crop of competition. You notice Cerdan never fought either of those guys either.

 

I thought Toney was robbed in both his fights with Griffin. That being said he was a pretty decent fighter. Im still wondering how he failed to beat an old and fifty pounds over weight Ross Thompson in his last fight. He was at least a step or two above Thompson in every area.

 

Burt, thanks for sharing things like this, first hand things you saw which is so different then what most of us here have to go by, films and clippings and such. Burt, I read that people who used to watch a prime Graziano live said he threw his right hand like an axe, did it look that way to you and was it one of the better right hands you saw over the years? Tim

 

Max Schmeling winning the vacant championship on the canvas possibly merits inclusion in this thread.

 

Rocky threw his right hand like he wasthrowing a baseball from right field to the catcher. He put his whole body into the punch. If it missed so be it, other right hands would follow...He fought like a "street fighter ",in
which he was..I have seen him when he cornered a man, he would grab
his opponents head with his left hand, and clobber the guy using his right hand...I once saw a young Graziano fighting a second cousin Frankie Terry,at Dexter Park..They bit each other, wrestled each other and
knocked the referee to the canvas...And they were RELATED !!!
I could go on and on about the "Dead End Kid"!!!
It was a powerful right hand,although not as accurate as a Tommy Hearns
laser right hand...Rocky was a DIGITALIS fighter....

 

Firstly, can someone please tell me how I start/make a new thread.

Marvin Hart
Jess Willard
Primo Carnera
Herbie Hide
Michael Bentt

Many, many more in the lower weight divisions.

 

I think you guys are selling Marcel Cerdan a bit short here. He beat top contender Georgie Abrams in MSG (where Abrams was VERY popular) by unanimous decision. This is the same Abrams who 5 months later would lose a very controversial split decision to Sugar Ray Robinson. The same Abrams who always makes the "top 20 greatest middleweight contenders of all time" lists.

(ps- don't buy into the myth that Cerdan's win over Georgie was "controversial". It wasn't. He beat him clearly. But Abrams was popular and put up a gritty fight, so a lot of sympathy was with him and many wanted a draw for him for his gutty performance. He didn't deserve one).

He also went right into top contender Anton Raadik's Chicago backyard and beat him by unanimous decision. The crowd booed, but the booing had more to do with the heavily-hyped Cerdan's poor performance in the final round than them thinking Raadik had "won" a bout he'd clearly lost. This is another bout that is shrouded in myth. The facts are these- This was Raadik's hometown, yet all 3 judges had Cerdan winning 9 of the 10 rounds. Marcel was floored 3 times in the final round due to relatively inconsequential punches(the last two were described as more punch-shoves). Marcel was sick, having looked exhausted as early as the 5th round(this was a man who could punch nonstop for 15 rounds) and he was throwing up at the end of the fight(and I was told in between rounds as well). The decision was not controversial. Anton put up a tough fight but was outclassed in every round but the last by a sick and weakened Cerdan.

He beat an aging but still formidable Holman Williams, who had won 18 of his last 22 fights(3 losses, to Archie Moore, Cocoa Kid and Bert Lytell. All first raters).

I'm not sure how to gauge Marcel's opposition in France and compare it to Thil's European opp. But Marcel pretty much cleaned it out up there and was 97-2(losses by DQ) by the time he arrived in the US. Not to knock Thil, but I see a lot of losses on his record(some by stoppage) in that first seven or eight years. Did he face tougher comp? I don't know. But Cerdan was doing SOMETHING right over there cuz he was pretty much unstoppable and fighters such as Ezzard Charles were calling him "the greatest fighter I have ever seen". That's high praise.

Just something to think about:good

 

Good post. :good

It's also worth remembering that WW2 disturbed Cerdan's career for a longer period than most the Americans were affected by it.
Cerdan in his prime had no choice by the stay fighting limited opposition in France and North Africa. At least some of the American fighters carried on fighting each, and generally they were only on war duty from 1942 or 1943, some later.

 

Good post, Surf-bat...I am not selling Marcel Cerdan short...In fact I who saw Cerdan fight Georgie Abrams Dec.6,1946 MSG,and thought Cerdan deserved the decision over the underated Georgie Abrams.. Cerdan was to me a great middleweight who I believe would have beaten Jake LaMotta
in their proposed rematch, if fate hadn't intervened...I also remember my dad and I listening to Harold Green in 1947, a day after Cerdan knocked
Harold Green out in the second round...Green told a group of us how in the first round in a clinch,he found Cerdan too strong for him,and Green was kod in the next round...What I have read years ago about the powerful Marcel Thil, and his great record against top opponents in the
1930s, has led me to believe that Marcel Thil would have decisioned
the gallant and handsome Cerdan...Both great middleweights..b.b.

 

Burt, I am more envious of you with each new thing I learn about you:good. Yes, there is a lot of myths circulating regarding Cerdan's fights. The latest is that LaMotta was as handicapped as Marcel in their fight in Detroit due to a broken knuckle(the laughably LaMotta-biased New York newspaper report grabbed onto this with both hands). I recently acquired the next-day reports from the DETROIT newspapers of this bout. Jake did indeed hurt his knuckle MID-FIGHT(not early as they'd have you believe) but he was still able to use BOTH hands for the entire fight, whereas Cerdan was only using one. Marcel's left hook- which was his best punch- was useless.

What brief footage exists concurs with the Detroit newspaper reports, not NY or The Ring's.

 

I never heard before of LaMotta hurting his knuckle mid fight against Cerdan...You live and learn,methinks...b.b.

 

Cerdan was never going to beat LaMotta. LaMotta was the biggest, most physical fighter Cerdan had ever faced and it was exactly that type of fighter who gave Cerdan fits. Raadick had Cerdan in a world of trouble and this had a lot to do with Raadicks strength and size. LaMotta outmuscled and outfought Raadick like he was nothing. I think Cerdan, somewhat like Dave Sands, and Les Darcy is extremely overrated based on his death happening at a time when it left a lot of question marks about him. Say what you will about whether Abrams and Raadick were robbed or not but Cerdan struggled in those fights against two guys who, if he was as good as his press, he should have defeated without much trouble, moreso Raadick than Abrams. I used to be friends with Rough and Tough Leon Thompson who was a sparring partner for Zale, Raadick, Joey LaMotta, and Cerdan when Cerdan first came to Chicago. On a personal level he thought the world of Cerdan, and remained life long friends with Zale but admitted that neither one had a chance with LaMotta after WW2. Allen Rosenfeld who wrote a very informative biography of Burley and who used to be Detroit correspondent for some of the boxing magazines saw most of LaMotta's Detroit fights and some of his Chicago fights. He was ringside for the Cerdan fight and stated that even before Cerdan's supposed injury LaMotta was giving him the worst body beating he had ever seen. Literally lifting Cerdan off the canvas with body punches. He also doubted that Cerdan's injury was as bad as later claimed and stated that he injury or not he didnt think Cerdan was going to win that fight or the rematch. Beyond all of this I just dont have a whole lot of respect for a fighter who conveniently comes up with an excuse EVERY time he loses or has a subpar showing and Cerdan certainly fits this category. Like I said above. His european opposition leaves a lot to be desired and like Roy Jones proved, you can look like a super man fighting bums. Its as simple as that. Suddenly he comes to the united states and faces some good club fighters and contenders (all of whom were past their prime, sometimes significantly past it) and still managed to struggle against some of those. Then he faces a young hungry guy who has been passed over for a title shot for years and gets his ass handed to him. Sorry but boxing isnt a sport where excuses carry a lot of weight IMO. Everyone has an excuse for losing and as some pointed out. LaMotta had a legitimate injury (I have a photo of him after the fight with his knuckles grotesquely swollen) the difference is he made lemonaide out of lemons and refused to make an excuse.