Simon Byrne vs Deaf Burke 1833 Heavyweight Championship and Bad Research

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by GlaukosTheHammer, Nov 15, 2017.


  1. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    As we begin research for the tragic, 1833, Simon Byrne/Deaf Burke Championship bout, one can ‘Google’ the event and receive the following story: “A 99 round hard fought battle – 3 hours and 16 minutes – the English deaf man prevails and is arrested/acquitted for murder. Doctors did all they could to save the fallen Irish pugilist.” The side story is how we have become such lazy researchers that we believe anything on the internet that is stated as ‘official’ to be factual.

    I would probably accept the Byrne/Burke ‘official’ version as true if it were not for a remarkable Scottish ‘broadside’ round-by-round account. The unnamed reporter provides a 28 round bout at 75 minutes – versus 99 rounds and 196 minutes. How can two versions be so different? The first thing I would like for comparison is a round-by-round account of the ninety-nine numbered version. It does not exist.

    The 99 round version was assembled by testamony of witnesses at the trial. Essentially you have a Scottish sports writer's detailed account vs a bar maid and doctor's testamonial account. The witnesses didn't give a narrative they just answered questions. Their memory of accounts they did provide is pretty questionable at best. Let me quote: “about the 50th round” - “about the 53rd round” - “about the 78th round”. Was there an umpire inside the ring? “The time keeper was in the ring, but I cannot say whether the umpire was or was not.” Watched an approximately 100 round bout of 3+ hours, and does not remember whether there was an umpire inside the ring with the boxers? This is our star witness? This is who provides the historical account for the fight? Not in my thread.
     
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  2. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Simon Byrne vs. Deaf Burke

    PRE-BOUT: Both men shake hands and wish the other good luck.

    ROUND 1: Both sort of stalk, mutual feints, maybe a couple light slap punches here and there. Burke finally lands a hard left to the side of head – Byrne drops to ground.

    ROUND 2: Burke is methodical as he pounds lefts and rights to the body. It is likely during this round that Burke lands the “death blow” – a hard left lands to upper chest. Byrne staggers back, does not wish to fall, but the pain is great and he is having trouble breathing and catching his breath. As Burke advances and steps forward, Byrne intentionally falls to ground.

    ROUND 3: Byrne has still not fully recuperated from the previous round. Burke lands to the body, lefts and rights, Byrne backs and backs. Burke steps forward. Byrne intentionally falls down in an effort to rest and recuperate strength.

    ROUND 4: Long round. Byrne is already desperate as he throws and lands lefts and rights. Both exchange punches. It is probably the toughest mutual combat of the bout. Burke finally grabs his man in a clinch and throws him violently to the ground…. Whether it is by an attempted punch thrown, or very possibly, an awkward landing, Byrne has wrenched his right hand. It is virtually useless from this moment onward.

    ROUND 5: Despite the pain, Byrne attempts to fight as he lands blows to head and body while Burke concentrates and lands hard rights to the side of body. As Byrne receives another hard punch to the left side of body, he likely attempts to block punch and leaves himself exposed. Burke lands a hard left to throat – Byrne drops to ground.

    ROUND 6: Burke lands a hard left to nose. Byrne staggered. Burke grabs the Irishman and throws him hard to ground.

    ROUNDS 7-9: Byrne is likely backing. It could be at this time he grasps the wooden stake to rest and gather balance. Burke is tired himself and not as anxious to chase a retreating opponent.

    ROUND 10: Byrne utilized the three previous rounds to rest and recuperate. Now, they stand toe-to-toe and exchange punches. Burke lands some sort of heavy blow. Byrne counters and lands a left punch. Burke steps forward. Byrne intentionally falls down.

    ROUNDS 11-14: Byrne realized it was over at this point and that he will not win. He is having trouble breathing with a deep ache on his left side. The exhaustion of throwing punches as overwhelming as the punches landed upon him. Byrne retreats and sort of staggers around the ring. He avoids fighting and continues to intentionally fall down.

    ROUND 15: Burke lands a hard left blow to body – Byrne drops in agony to the ground.

    ROUND 16: Burke is methodical with lefts and rights that land to the body. It is noticeable to spectators that Byrne is weakened, in trouble, and cannot continue. Spectators have rushed to Byrne’s corner and yelled at Jem Ward/Tom Spring to stop the fight. This fight was decided and over by the 2nd round. Every body punch from that round to the bout’s conclusion extended the injuries for a man who needed immediate medical treatment.

    Chaos now reigns supreme with spectators out of control. There is violence amongst gamblers and thieves. Despite spectator concern over Byrne’s condition, Jem Ward and Tom Spring, continue to send the Irishman, round by round, to his death.

    ROUND 18: Byrne is a man of courage, in serious trouble, but for the only time during this bout, crashes and lands his injured right to the side of head – Burke drops to ground. One imagines the crowd roars at this unexpected development. It is not exactly legal, but a quite common occurrence, as Byrne lands his body on top of Burke’s head. The Englishman himself is now a bit winded and stunned. Burke possibly vomits since witnesses insist it happened once. In deference to his opponent’s deafness, and to show there are no hard feelings, Byrne offers a friendly and playful slap, not to injure but out of sportsmanship.

    ROUND 23: Burke dominates as he lands a hard blow to the head – Byrne drops to ground. It is around this time that the Irishman suffers from a serious concussion.

    ROUND 24: Burke dominates. Spectators cheer as the Englishman methodically lands right jabs to the left of body. Byrne is too winded to run and unable to defend himself. The Irishman finally drops to the ground. Byrne died as a result of internal injury to the left side of his body.

    The bout is out of control with Simon Byrne not rising to fight after 30 seconds. The delays probably started out at 45 seconds to a minute. Now the delays are longer. Deaf Burke should be declared the victor. Byrne cannot fight any longer. Where is the umpire? Is there an umpire? The only name that appears in the transcripts is Tom Belcher, the former Champion’s brother, and a former pugilist himself. It would be more than possible he was on Byrne’s side, or to be specific, Jem Ward and Tom Spring’s, side. The crowd is ugly and violent, hurling insults and threats toward Ward and Spring; otherwise, he could just invent a foul and disqualification against Burke. At this point, Belcher might have considered self-preservation, and then decided he was not the umpire or official to anything. This bout was evolving, with legal consequences involved, in the wrong direction. Many spectators have fled, perhaps Belcher has fled, but he certainly has placed himself in the background, and wants nothing more to do with this mess.

    ROUND 25: A wounded Byrne attempts a final, desperate offensive threat, with wild lefts and rights, all blocked by Burke. The Englishman counters with a hard punch that lands to nose – Byrne drops to ground.

    ROUND 26: Burke dominates. Byrne staggers drunkenly as he is unable to defend himself. Burke pounds and pounds on the Irishman until he falls. Byrne cannot rise. Another delay.

    Gamblers are concerned two-fold. Their greatest concern is not Byrne’s health. Those decent people have already left, but instead are concerned about what gamblers are most concerned about: money. If they have money bet on Burke, the Irishman should be disqualified after lengthy delays, but it is doubtful there is an umpire to disqualify anyone. It could also be at this moment that a hat lands in the ring. It was Tom Spring’s dishonesty, as the main force behind a sadly ironic, The Fair Play Club, that has brought upon much corruption. This was English boxing’s greatest political power, which featured kickbacks and corruption, blatant mismatches and false advertisement. The Fair Play Club placed honest and decent men, such as Simon Byrne and Deaf Burke, at the mercy of their criminal element.

    It is also true, as evil was Jem Ward, that Tom Spring was no Jem Ward. It would be Spring, much too late, who would have recognized the situation as hopeless. The cynic could point to Tom Spring’s actions as selfish: that the gig was up and this Irish fighter would require medical attention. Law enforcement would be alerted and they all could be in serious trouble.

    Tom Spring was a cheat, Tom Spring was a crook, Tom Spring was a dishonest man who misused his power, but let us remember: Tom Spring was no Jem Ward. I believe his concern for Simon Byrne at this moment was legitimate and that he worried more about his fighter than himself. But Jem Ward likely overruled him as he cajoled Byrne to continue. Despite interminable delays, Ward insisted that the bout was not over.

    ROUND 28: Byrne can barely stand, but somehow he rises. Burke cautiously steps forward. Byrne throws a desperate left to the throat that misses. Burke counters and lands a punch to the neck – Byrne drops to ground. The Irishman rises and staggers to his corner. Byrne collapses into the arms of either Ward or Spring.

    Only history recognizes the bout as over. It is unlikely that Jem Ward recognizes that his fighter has lost, and still hopes to assist Byrne regain consciousness, so that he can send him out to fight round 29. Burke and his corner men stand around. Maybe he sipped brandy (used as a pain killer) as he waited. Simon Byrne lay unconscious, still and unmoving, for 30 minutes. As time passes, an hour or so, it slowly dawns on everyone that this man is seriously injured. Gamblers would be leaving in droves, others concocting stories and lies, as surely everyone knows they could be deemed legally complicit in the death of a pugilist.


    Most of this comes from Christopher James Shelton's Bare Knuckle 1722-1889.
     
  3. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    and so began The Troubles...
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    I have an account of this fight in " Fights For The Championship" taken from Bells Life & Boxiana.The purse was £100 .If I am still here tomorrow I will put it up.
     
  5. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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  6. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Exactly. I never had any sort of issue with the 99 round version until I heard it was based on court testimony. Even now I don't have much issue with the report so much as issue with no one ever pointing out the circumstances surrounding that report. It's presented as if it's just a ringside report like any other rbr, and that's dishonest writing in my book. It's court testimony cobbled together into a round by round. The reader should be given all info and allowed their own choices. I do not appreciate when authors attempt to control a narrative by keeping their readers in the dark. Which I kind of did myself by not presenting the 99 rounder, but I thought that was on boxrec and easily found. The scottish report takes some digging.

    This is one of the rare cases when I can speak to what accepted verification has been for all these years. That 99 round story is backed by legal testimony. The Scottish report is a first hand account from a single person perspective. The difference is the 99 rounder is written or at least told by people who are doing their best to remember a traumatic event after it's happened. The Scottish report was written by a man taking notes the whole fight.

    Think about the last time you watched a fight live then rewatched it and discovered your first take was largely emotional, not accurate. That's my beef, that ain't no verified.

    Another one I could toos out while I'm at it. An article from England in 1730 is a valuable resource. Just about anywhere else and we pretend like it's somehow less of an article and more of a fiction. If it comes from Russia it's suspect. If it comes from the UK it's the basis for our understanding of modern boxing. Kinda BS init?
     
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  7. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The bout did last 3 hours 6 or 10 minutes, and 99 rounds were fought. I don't know where Chris took those supposed witnesses' quotes at the trial, I couldn't find them in Bell's Life version of what was said at the trial. I pointed out to him about 10 years ago when we were exchanging emails that the duration of 3+ hours was mentioned in London Times' report of the trial. Since then I've acquired reports of the bout from Bell's Life, Morning Advertiser and Morning Chronicle, and all three agree on 3+ hours and 99 rounds. Bell's Life had a round by round description of rounds 1-20, 27, 29, 31, 35-37, 43, 49, 93. The broadsheet was, obviously, fake, an attempt to earn some money from this tragic event.
     
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  8. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah, the Morning Advertiser says people reported 3 hours or three hours ten minutes, the May 31 version does not state the number of rounds.
     
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  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Could you post 1 of the reports of the bout?

    That's the trouble, I prefer contemporary reports as there's less time for memories to fade or myths arise, but they do sometimes distort or outright fabricate stuff.
     
  10. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I heavily edited Chris's full assertion so I could add to it if you reckon that may help you with where the idea that the 99 rounder was compiled by trial testimony came from. I had never heard of such a thing until Shelton made that claim so it's not something I'd argue about or claim any real understanding of.

    I'm not really concerned with how many sources collaborate the 99 rounder, that's what you'd expect even if Chris is correct, but the lack of any actual testimony known to anyone outside of Christopher Shelton is troubling.

    If you could, or I will later, could you date this stuff? Is it even possible, time wise, for these accounts to be based on any court proceedings?
     
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  11. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Chris was sometimes a bit too impulsive/hasty when he found sources that were controversial. It's ok to be somewhat doubtful about sources, but when you think you have found something that everyone believed was true, actually was false, or vice versa, it's usually good to double and triple check it before revealing it to the public.

    On his blog you can find another story of a fake report (1854 Hyer-McGowan bout), which he also originally thought to be something that was overlooked by other historians. Took me some efforts to persuade him it was fake.

    If you want I can send you the reports via email. I tried to upload the images to photobucket, but the service shrinks them to unreadable size. The reports appeared either next day (May 31 - Morning Advertiser, Globe and Traveller, Morning Chronicle) or with a delay of a couple of days (Bell's Life in London was printed once a week, on Sundays). Byrne died on Sunday night, at 8:30, after Bell's Life's issue with the report was out there already. Plus, there was yet another report in the Sporting Magazine in July 1833 issue, which also timed it at 3h 6m and 99 rounds, and the writer intended to give a round by round description, but then desided against it for lack of science displayed by either fighter and for the tragic consequences.

    Upon re-reading the text of the trial, I must admit I was wrong, having not noticed the quotes listed in the original post in this thread, they are indeed mentioned in Bell's Life report in the trial, but they were made by The County Press (Hertford, Hertfordshire) reporter S.G. Shaw, not by London sporting reporters.
     
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  12. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Super interesting!

    My email is
    This content is protected
    . Anytime you want to send me anything you reckon would be useful to the threads I make I would be very appreciative. I'm very much in favor of presenting all known information, and if I need to read a few pictures or some such similar barrier to transcribe them to text or get in the thread in some manner I can do that.

    I'm not sure if you're aware of the program, or if it's even applicable to this particular case, but FreeOCR has been a tremendous help to me in similar situations. It's one of those computer generated picture to text deals you have to do a good amount of cleaning up after by human hand and eye for the text to actually make sense, but it is where I start and it does save me considerable time.

    http://www.paperfile.net/download.html
     
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  13. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes, S G Shaw gave evidence of the to-and-frow nature of the fight, and attested that it lasted "Upwards of three hours" and that he was present.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    "Fights For The Championship "states it was 99rds and gives a brief summary up till the37th round then glosses over the next 5 rounds.It states that Burke got on top in the 49th round and thereafter the fight ebbed and flowed.
    It gives the duration of the fight as ,"exactly 3hours and six minutes",and the end of which Burke was proclaimed,"Champion of England",and goes into detail about the subsequent inquest.