Sit Down Earnie Shavers ... Deontay Wilder is the best puncher the division has ever produced

Rubbish resume though, only one good win.

 

I must have missed that one

 

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Dubblechin would take a bullet for Wilder, I actually respect his commitment to Wilder.

 

I’ve already explained to you in-depth, that you cannot debate just on statistics.

There’s too many things to consider.

Like another poster has said, we’ll never actually know who the hardest puncher is. Because you’d have to do various scientific tests, where they’d also have to hit the same fighters with the same punches. So it could never be possible to declare anyone as being the best outright.

Look at your very first sentence above.

“It’s about creating opportunities and then capitalising on them”

That’s correct. But if you can’t create that opportunity, then you can’t land the perfect punch.

Your stats don’t mean anything. How many of those above fights of Shavers have you actually seen? He may not have had the opportunity to have landed his perfect shots. He could simply have been outboxed. Shavers was known throughout his time as a huge puncher, but he was never considered an elite fighter.

Like I keep telling you, there’s too much to consider. You say that Wilder was a bigger puncher than Foreman. But you can’t prove it. All you can do is give me knockout percentages. But again, George fought 70 odd times until he was about 50. So imagine if Wilder did that? Who’s to say what his knockout percentage would be then.

Wilder hit Fury flush in 3 fights but couldn’t knock him out. Three fights. Do you know what that tells me? That his knockout percentage would have been greatly reduced had he have fought better guys. What if he’d have had Evander’s resume? Tyson x 2, Lewis x 2, Bowe x 3 etc? Then what?

If a fighter loses, again, they might have lost by not being able to throw their power shots. Julian Jackson lost to several low level guys towards the end of his career. They didn’t survive his huge power shots, he simply just never got the opportunity to land flush.

You need the perfect timing and leverage. You need precision. The perfect technique. And if you’re faded and you’ve no longer got the capabilities you once had, then you can’t find the shot. Which is why it’s pointless saying that Tyson couldn’t knock out McBride etc. It’s not that he didn’t have the power. It’s that his skills had eroded to the point where he was never in the fight. He was shot.

Again, you’d have to watch all of these fights to determine what really happened.

You are very ignorant on this subject.

If Wilder fights some more tough stylistic match ups where he can’t knock his opponent out, his knockout percentage will quickly diminish.

It’s pretty pointless of you listing everyone’s defeats. Because again, unless you’re going to analyse the fights, the losses may have had nothing to do with a lack of power.

If Butterbean had landed his right hand flush on a Top 10 HW of the 90’s-00’s, then trust me, they’d have gone. But had he have fought everyone in the top 20, his knockout percentage would have been zero. Because he’d have been beaten by everyone, without being able to have landed his power punches. He’d probably have lost every fight, where he’d have gone 0-20.

Again, you haven’t taken schedules, losses, injuries, primes etc into account.

It’s as simple as this:

If you’d have given George Foreman all of Wilder’s opponents, where he’d have followed the exact same timeline, then he’d probably have replicated the same results. I’m sure George could have knocked out mostly B and C level guys just fighting twice a year in his 30’s. Yet if Wilder had tried to have replicated Foreman’s exact timeline, I can promise you that his knockout percentage would now look very different.

Stop comparing stats.

If this subject really interests you that much, at least go and do some actual analysis.

 

None of the above means anything.

It really doesn’t.

Again, Mike was shot for some of those, some guys beat him, and some of the others just came to survive.

Watch the fights and tell me how many perfectly timed power punches he threw/was able to throw in those fights.

In the fights where he wasn’t even able to land his power punches, they can’t even be countered can they.

Results aren’t just based upon a lack of power.

I’ve already explained this.

If I had a time machine, I could give Wilder 20 HW’s from throughout history to fight.

I could do that, and maybe from my 20 opponents, he could only have beaten less than half of them.

That would then have drastically altered his knockout percentage. But that wouldn’t mean he wasn’t a deadly puncher. It could have just meant that if I’d have matched him with Lewis, the K’s and Tyson etc, that he’d have been beaten and not been able to have hit them flush in order to have stopped them. He simply might not have had the opportunity to have knocked them out. Or alternatively, it could have meant that he did him them flush like how he did with Fury, but like Fury, they were able to take the punches. Nobody knows.

Only a fool would debate purely on statistics.

If Wilder has 10 more fights where some of them go to points, but then another HW comes onto the scene and knocks everybody out, then the new guy will have a better knockout percentage.

 

Again, you don’t know who the best puncher is.

Tommy Morrison may have hit harder than Wilder.

Without doing scientific test etc, it’s impossible to say.

 

You’re all over the place here.

If you’re saying that it was pathetic for Mike to have lost to Danny Williams, as Danny Williams was a Euro level fighter, then how can you then use that same performance to try and show that Mike wasn’t the puncher that Wilder was?

If Mike had’ve fought Williams and McBride in 1988, they’d have added to his knockout percentage, as he’d have beaten them both inside 2 rounds. They were both career European level fighters.

 

Why couldn’t the so called hardest hitter in the sports history knock out Tyson Fury in THREE ATTEMPTS??

Riddle me that.

And if you come back and say because of styles, or a lack of opportunity, or because of Tyson’s chin etc, then you HAVE to make those same allowances for every other HW that you’re looking at.

 

You haven’t produced any facts.

Statistics aren’t facts.

You haven’t looked at KO’s and TKO’s etc.

You haven’t taken everything into account.

You are trying to debate on knockouts and knockout percentages.

Again, it’s not as simple as that.

If Wilder fought 10 more Molina’s, it goes up.

If he fought 10 more Fury’s, it would go down.

There’s no doubt in my mind that Wilder has huge power. But you’re can’t proclaim him to be the hardest ever puncher based on BoxRec.

 

So what would Wilder’s knockout percentage be if he’d have fought more elite HW’s like Fury?

The likelihood is, it would look nothing like what it currently does.

 

"Yet if Wilder had tried to have replicated Foreman’s exact timeline, I can promise you that his knockout percentage would now look very different."

You can't promise that because it can't be tested, you just think it's true. I agree that Dubblechin omits a variety of relevant factors but just as we cannot say for sure that Wilder is the hardest punching HW champ ever, we can't say for sure that Wilder wouldn't have KO'd more of Foreman's opponents than Foreman did, or that Foreman would have KO'd or even beaten all of the opponents that Wilder beat.

There are many factors to consider: the fighter's physical, technical and psychological attributes other than power, durability of opponent, quality of opponent (hard to determine between distant eras) frequency of KD's and type of KO. Does he spark them out with one or does he break them down via accumulation? Can he take them out early and late? There are also distinctions between the power of specific punches: Wilder's left is nowhere near as powerful as his right, Pulev's jab seems to carry significant power but not his other punches etc. Subjective testimony is also relevant and is the biggest reason why Shavers is considered to be a hellacious puncher, because his record isn't as impressive when examined. By the same token, multiple fighters who've sparred with both have claimed that Wilder hits harder than 6'5, 245 lbs Wlad, who is certainly one of the biggest punchers of all time. Steward and Roach claimed that Wlad hit harder than Lewis and Tyson and his stats against 215+ lbs and 230+ lbs HW's at championship level are well up there among are the best of all time, especially considering his conservative style.