Size and sports science vs Golden era

Fleischer said that? Well, then I guess, I must be wrong... so please disregard my uninformed post.

 

Size, reach, and height matter when both men are in shape with skills. If you're giving up a lot in height and reach, and the other guy can jab too, you're likely not going to win out fighting on points. That much is proven true say 90% of the time. If he clinches you, you're going to be worn down by the extra weight. Top In-fighting skills are rare among heavies.

I actually think the uppercut is harder punch to land if you are much shorter.

Boxing has weight classes for a reason!

Would you expect a great welter like Jose Naples to beat a light heavy like Ward or Kovalev? Of course not! But that's the size disparity ( say 30 pounds and 5-6" in height ) between most old-time heavyweights and modern super heavyweights with skills. Reach really seems to be an huge issue for those around 6 feet or shorter vs. a 6'5" or taller opponent. Rare exceptions like Sonny Liston are noted.

The much smaller man at heavyweight brings a knife to a sword fight, and he better know how to get in close to use it, but if the bigger man has good footwork and knows how to use it, he's " zoned " and often can't get into range to use it often.

However, power is the great equalizer, so a much smaller man like Rocky who had two-fisted power could cap Lennox Lewis. I would not bet on it, but it could happen. I also feel the much smaller man at heavyweight needs a good chin to hang in there. An average chin, and he's not lasting long. The shorter boxer types without power at heavyweight are essential out of business!

The other factor is rules, equipment, and sometimes venues.

15 round or more benefits the old timers who were in better shape and seemed to have a bit more heart. Fighting outdoors on in nonair-conditioned buildings also favor the old timers more

The gloves are interesting. 6-8oz gloves are punchers gloves, allowing for greater velocity. 12-ounce gloves which are used today for heavies have more padding. This decreases velocity and the force of the blow. So Joe Louis might not look as powerful with 12 ounce gloves and larger opponents...yeah its true to an extent.

Pre-1920, fighters did not use mouth guards/gum shields, and the gloves were made from horse hair, which spilled or scuffed creating cuts. So taking a punch back then was even harder. And there was no paste for the cuts, and not even ice for swelling! The cups back then were metal and not the best for movement, and in some cases did more harm than good. Harry Wills once said he'd never box with the equipment the old timers used. Those guys were tough!

My $.02

 

Being an old fart, I too subscribe to the "newer is sh/t" theory.

I have always challenged the kids trying to postulate that because boxing has survived over time that an osmosis effect takes over and simply because of the passage of time and because sprinters and swimmers are better now and records are being brokem, it must then mean that boxing is better now too. I ask them to take a look at an older fight, such as Gavilan-Graham or Louis-Conn or a million others, take your pick really.....look at those, then refer me to any modern fight you like, and YOU, the modernist......you tellME what you see that's so advanced now in the new fighters. What is it exactly that you see that is so much better technically? No one has ever answered the question. Never once.

The "time advancement" theory is flawed because it assumes that all disciplines benefit over time with the passing-on of knowledge and practice. After all, such appears to be the case with baseball, football, track, etc........the problem is that it doesn't apply to boxing. Boxing used to permeate the scene far more than it does now; boxing gyms and pavilions used to litter every major city, such is not the case now. Why? Supply and demand. No one wants boxing the way they used to. It truly is a dying sport. It's more marginalized now than it's ever been, particularly since MMA has raised its knotted head. Whatever hunger we as a society may have had for boxing has been supplanted by that.

I would refer the "time advancement" people to Latin........with the passage of time, we should be excelling in the Latin language, no? After all, time is passing, right? No. It's a dead language, because people choose not to use it anymore. The same is true of boxing. Not all things flourish over time. Evolution dictates that some things fade and die over time, not everything excels.

Now get off my lawn.

 

There are more boxing gyms now Perry. Take off the North American glasses for 5 seconds. 5-4-3-2-1... Boxing is a global sport. It also officiated a bit differently so fighters adapt to the times.

Very few are skilled at countering anyway in any era, and yes there are some who can do it today. The gloves are a little higher these days compared to Nat's. Yes it's range fighting these days Like in war, distance and the ability to deliver it are paramount. That might suck for fans, but it's the truth and evolution of the sport. Sorry.

Roach, Steward, Dundee and others lived past Fleischer are excellent trainers. The problem now is dedication to the craft and alphabet politics. It's tough to be a fighter, especially when you're not making big time money for each fight.

 

Boxing skills have declined in the US due to the loss of neighborhood boxing gyms, elimination
of college boxing teams, and move towards other sports in the inner city. No, I don't think the
best boxer is playing in the NFL....but he might have been a boxer rather than a football player
back in the 20's-30's-40's when you could make more money boxing.

But worldwide it's still a big sport, especially in E Europe. I don't have a figure for number of
boxing gyms in Belarus but it seems to me there is more interest overseas than in the US
in boxing.

With respect to the lighter weights.....better and better training techniques and nutrition have
helped in every other sport (Babe Ruth wouldn't be eating a dozen hot dogs and 4 blondes a day
in the 21st century...well maybe the blondes but not the dogs) so there is no reason to believe
old school boxers were in better shape HOWEVER they fought a hell of a lot more, and as is
expressed in the Bushido Code The Way is in Training. Stands to reason a guy with 120 bouts
will have more of an idea of how to fight than a guy with 20 bouts. Still, guys like Hagler,
Leonard, Duran, GGG, Chavez (Senior!) would be competitive at any age, and so would
Gans, Benny Leonard, etc.

With respect to the HW's: sure, Dempsey beat a big guy in Willard, Louis beat Carnera, etc.
Could they (and Marciano) beat the Furys/Povetkins of today? Sure, it's possible, but not over
and over again. No way they could be effective after 25 bouts with guys who outweighed them by
40-80 pounds...they would get worn down, lose skills and not have the illustrious records they
had back then.

 

Sal is on the money. Perfect post.

Range fighting is low skill fighting. It involves being able to keep other low skilled fighters at arm length. Since they have never been taught classic boxing it's just a question of who has the longer reach and more powerful punches. It's rarely a question of having the ability to truly outbox an opponent due to boxing skill....slipping punches, feinting into position, parries, blocking....nullifying the lower skilled range fighter via boxing skill. These are the finer point of the game that are it seems seldom taught today.

Weight divisions are important at lower weights where 5 pounds can mean a lot. At hwt much less so as most have the power to take the other out no matter the weight.

 

Fury is much more skilled then Ali and the wlad that Fury beat destroys any version of Ali

Your comment is pure rubbish Charles Martin, Bruce seldon, bentt, moorer, liakovich and many more so called "champions" besides are far inferior to Fury

It's clear YDKSAB

 

Fury is bottom rung. First hwt champion I've ever openly laughed at he was so inept and amateurish. Just a horrible hwt. Low skilled and he is like watching a three stooges short. Comical and the same time sad what the sport has become in the hwt ranks.

 

Diets and supplements are much better laid out today,than the guess work of the pre 90's. fighters train harder to fight a specific opponent today once they are legit contenders bc more money is involved and a loss isnt looked like it was decades ago, so fighters prepare much better for their opponents. The 80's brought in a nerw generation of better movers and game planners,after the 70's,one can simply look at the differances between the 70's guys who brawled and didnt move as much to that of the 80's guys who better all around foiught smarter...Example would be Quarry vs Tubbs. a slick fast huge fighter and Quarry a slow footed basic come forward guy. you need to use your head in actual match ups and leave hype behind.

Fighters are bigger/stronger and smarter today,the SHw needs less moving because he is a SHw...this shouldnt be hard to figure out. If you added 20 more pounds to ali in the 60's and he is then 235 pounds do you really think hes not going to somewhat alter his style,lets be real here.

This fight shows Bonevena who was a telegaphing wil and off balance fighter when swinging for the fences...sorry but top guys do not fight like this anymore they are MUCH bigger and utilize jabs as well as game planning much more effeciently. This is the golden age in short .

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Nonsense. If you want to see a three stooges short, go watch some Max Baer fights. Fury is light years beyond, skill wise.

 

I respect the heck out of the Golden Age guys, but let's be real here: if 190 and 200 pound fighters were able to compete for a career (and not just a one-off or couple of fight scenario), the Cruiserweight division wouldn't have been formed in the first place, and the limit wouldn't have grown to 200 pounds.

The majority of "Golden Age" heavyweights were Cruiserweight sized guys fighting other Cruiserweight sized guys for the majority of their career. Doesn't diminish their greatness, that's just how it is. Fans missing those kinds of fights can see plenty like them by simply watching Cruiserweights fight today. It's a stacked division with plenty of good, skilled, and/or action packed fighters.

And if they could move up and succeed at Heavy, they would. The paydays and prestige would dictate it, especially if it was just as easy or easier than winning at Cruiser.

 

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Things have to be case by case.

When Lewis was in his prime one of his most competitive fights was the rematch with Holy, a former cruiser.

Vitali was stopped by Byrd, a former cruiser.

Fury was dropped by Cunningham, a former cruiser.

The only man who you could look and and deduce smaller men have very little chance is Wlad because his whole strategy was based around beating smaller men and look how long it took him to come up with that strategy.

I'm beginning to think more and more that Wlad was a unique case.

Top men today are Wilder, Parker, Povetkin, Ortiz and Joshua. Of those Ortiz is past his best and the only really proven fighter is Povetkin who struggled greatly with Huck, a former cruiser. We don't know how good Joshua, Parker and Wilder will go on to be.

The big difference is the toll a career can take fighting heavier men. Sub 200 men cannot compete long term in today's division, but they can certainly clear out CW and jump up for 1 or 2 fights as a minimum.

I wonder what the average size of the division was when Holy made his jump. Even more recently Haye and Adamek had a lot of success at HW after making the jump.

Wlad was a uniquely one dimensional fighter who had it down to a tee. That just isn't the case for every 230+ sized fighter.

 

Except an old Foreman taking the sport by storm after being out of the ring for a decade kinda pisses all over your bonfire there....

 

this is a good post but I would not say the finer points are no longer taught. They are taught but they become obsolete in the face of super heavyweight tactics. Heavy men might be able to carry more functional weight but the function is not technical boxing anymore. They are too heavy to do it, so long arms is the key now.

This is why it is time to separate the SHW from the heavyweight. You can do this by calling CW the HW class in line with Amateur boxing. Those guys fight at 220 on the night anyway. And they can still box at that weight.

Super heavyweight is here to stay.