Skillsets Are Overated on ESB, While Effectiveness Is Underated... Agree?

There are no 'elite' fighters in his weight class, Taylor and Abraham are the only 'good fighters' which is a step above decent and solid.

Things have to be looked at more analytically than this ACB.

How do you figure this? Taylor, Zertuche and Zuniga showed what some of his deficiencies were, none of them won, but that doesn't mean they didn't do something that showed us more about Pavlik, especially Pavlik's leaky defence and inability to fight well off of the backfoot.

You would have to assume that if he got in there with superior fighters, that he'd perhaps need to be able to switching something up if it were not working and he hasn't shown anything indicating that he's be capable of doing it effectively against another top fighter.

He's also very sloppy, has been off balance multiple times.

Calling a weak division is lacking objectivity when it is devoid of serious top level talent? Sure, you can say 'this is all subjective', but it's also a means of analysing and rating fighters ability as to where they stand, if we assumed that everybody top 10 ranked must automatically be as good as the top 10 or top 5 in other divisions, then things could get even more so 'sticky'.

But I'll give you a prime example, the 3rd best in the division now in Felix Sturm, a hometown fighter who struggles with C level fighters, that's not very inspiring about MW.

This has to do with the financial side, Calzaghe would wipe Pavlik out, as he is the stylistic poison for any type of pressure fighter.

If you think I'm happy that he's fighting Jones, I am not, very disgusted to be honest. But you have the reasons why the Pavlik fight isn't a go very wrong.

:yep

 

Kessler is one that always pops up and apart form losing to Calzaghe has no other claim to fame other than Marcus Beyer and Andrade. Yet " because of his skillset" many say he is the future and beats Pavlik hands down. I dont buy that.

 

Yes, which is why fighters need to be individually rated and nothing 'assumed' just for where they stand on paper.

 

:deal

I have been reading the posts in here, and this one clearly and easily explains everything about the gist of this thread.

 

Ownage you get a TKO. That guy has made a few off the wall statements recently on the forums that have me questioning his judgement.
Either that or he is not too keen on Pavlik or PAC.

 

Again, this is not rating things correctly. He defeated Andrade, Beyer & Mundine as his 3 most recognisable wins and he dropped a total of 2-3 rounds between all of these guys.

Mundine is a top level fighter, Andrade is definitely a solid top 5 fighter and both of them got utterly dominated and schooled and Kessler looked basically flawless against them.

Prior to fighting Taylor, Pavlik struggled with Zuniga, not a top level at all, had defensive lapses and a small war in the early rounds with Zertuche, who's a gate keeper and then had his issue's with Miranda, though Miranda is a legit top 5'er, so that's not as bad.

So if you want to be impartial and rate fighters, Pavlik struggled with Taylor twice(though, so did Hopkins and Wright)despite having a heavy stylistic advantage and Kessler beat a similiar level fighter in Mundine by outright domination and made it look easy at that.

Kessler also showed to be stronger inside than Calzaghe(despite losing the fight)and FEW are stronger inside than Calzaghe, Calzaghe had to adapt and switch things up to the situation to win, otherwise he was going to lose coming right at Kessler with varied forms of his signature swarming.

There is no reason to pick a basic pressuring boxer-puncher like Pavlik, whom does have exceptional power, over Kessler when Kessler has shown that he likes guys that come right at him a whole lot, tattooing them sharp counters and pin-point punches in a combination of his accuracy and sense of distance, as well as handspeed and good movement. Pavlik is too basic, it's not bias, it's reality.

 

The difference here is that Pavlik is a monstrous puncher and Kessler will be countering the straight right headed at him loaded and concussive.
The danger that Kelly brings to the table will put the intangibles of Kesslers chin, durability and heart to bear. I really question Kesslers durability in a rough give and take scrap with a puncher of the magnitude of a Kelly Pavlik.

Kelly also is a great manager of distance, and fighters dont have the luxury of staying at the end of that distance (Taylor 2nd fight) You have to fight a cautious fight but the Pavlik Jab also racks up points so eventually you have to dart in and out like Taylor did, on the alert at all times because of that power. Kessler does not have the hand speed or footspeed of a Jermain Taylor.

The long jab creates the distance and its not a flicking jab but a thudding one followed by the straight right. I see Kelly in trouble with an atheletic speedster who goes in and out but has has tremendous KO power. Kessler does not come to mind as that speedster. Arthur Abraham and Kessler have a punchers chance but the moment Kelly begins to land that fight is over.

 

I disagree in regards to Abraham. He has more than proven his chin is iron and that he can take punishment. Pavlik's chin is more questionable than Abraham's.

 

Boxing is not as simple as who looks more fluid. So many things have to be taken into consideration beyond skill.

You can have the most perfect boxer with a great chin, good technique, good speed and good power and watch him get ruined by a percieved "lesser" opponent. That is why it is boxing. It could be something as obvious as a right hand over the guard or it could be as subtle as a left underneath the jab. Obviously some things are overlooked even by the hardcore fans on ESB.

 

I am not convinced Pavlik is a great controller of distance.

 

No both would get equal credit. Im sure your not implying Pac has not got his just due becuase after his victory with all the threads devoted to him. There is a ceiling to how good you can perform in boxing, and given the level of the opposition pac reached it and guzman would too as well. However, Guzman would school pac if they were ever to meet.:yep

Same goes with cotto and pbf. Cotto has beaten a lot of pbf's victims in a lot quicker than pbf but pbf would school cotto if they were too ever meet.:deal

 

Pavlik is an accumulation puncher, has never sparked anybody in the top 10 without accumulatively beating someone down first. All the guys he's fought lately have major defensive lapses as well, allowing him to land, Kessler has a very, very good D for his style and is proficient at blocking, keeping range and is also underrated at dodging shots, Pavlik will no doubt land some punches on Kessler, but Kessler will not absorb punishment like Taylor or the others just on his defence alone and his offense work is so accurate, that pressure fighters like Pavlik are prone to walking right into pin-point counters... know what I mean?

He most likely won't have to war with Pavlik, the guys sense of distance and inside strength were even stronger than Calzaghe's, who's fabulous at closing distance and actually had to revert to fighting at distance to get a lead on Kessler, where he was otherwise getting tooled at the mid-range early.

Kessler does not fight give and take scraps, he breaks opponents down by controlling the fight and landing in high amount with a solid workrate of well timed, accurate blows behind one of the better jabs around today, not the 'best', but a top jab.

His speed is also so much greater than Pavlik's, Pavlik would have to bring this in close and to do so, he'd have to eat X amount of Kessler's counters and even if he does bring it close, he is open to that brutal uppercut before he can likely get anything consistent off himself due to Kessler's magnificent timing/accuracy combination.

This is disagree, he gets tagged by C level fighters because of this, but what I will give you is that he's very proficient at cutting off the ring with rangy work. He's also a good in-fighter, but as a manager of distance, not on the same level as Kessler.

Yes, but Taylor is very predictable in his movement and work and while he has excellent timing, it's strange that is accuracy is very basic....:huh

Taylor can time single shots at times with pin-point precision, but then just fall apart in his accuracy and miss frequently, even when big openings are there.

He also has poise issue's and lacks a really solid defence, so Pavlik was able to get to him with consistent pressure, which Taylor dislikes stylistically anyway, Kessler seemingly excells against pressure.

You are very correct, Jermain Taylor is quicker than Kessler, but you leave out that the timing and accuracy departments are not even comparable, Kessler is levels up at those two area's, along with technique, Kessler works in throwing like a perfect textbook fighter.

But in saying that, Kessler is still quicker than Pavlik by a good bit and combined with better schooled skills than Taylor, the timing/accuracy, the defence and of course the better power(Taylor has never shown real power, even in accumulation), it's not comparable. He is also not predictable in movement, keeping things on his terms always unless you are dealing with a rythym disrupting fighter as displayed in his loss vs. Calzaghe, Pavlik is not a rythym disrupter, he is a pressure fighter.

You've got a battle between who controls the bout here, one guy is open to being countered badly due to a lack of defence and brings pressure, the other is the accurate boxer-puncher that enjoys tattooing pressure fighters.

Yes and he would be jabbing with a more precise and sharp jabber, he also has balance issue's and if he is not in proper range, will get off balance trying to set up just what you describe here, this leaves him open to a counter puncher like Kessler, who has perfect balance.

No, he's not a 'speedster', but his handspeed and delivery speed is none the less very quick, as are his feet when moving in and out of distance and controlling distance behind his accurate jab.

I see Kelly in trouble with a strong, competent counter puncher just as much as I would with what you described there. I also see him in trouble against a guy who can back him up, as he's ineffective like this and his defence needs major improvement, the guy backing him up(which Kessler is more than capable of), would have even more openings of which to land upon.

Abraham is the puncher here, Kessler in my opinion would just pick him off consistently, win most rounds and brutally stop him. I'd expect Abraham to lose most rounds and then find his mark, winning by mid-rounds KO or so similiar to how he did against Miranda.

 

Yep. Keep posting!

 

Esspecially the case when evaluating guys like Roy Jones.

One the flip side though, unorthadox technique can also make fighters become over rated, because it is more pleasing to watch for the most part.

 

Yes, but it's obvious that Jones had tremendous skill offensively and defensively, people who have stated otherwise are jokes, he was also multi-dimensional and could switch on the fly, this takes a tremendous skillset to do from the start.

The call on guys like Pavlik is very different, as he's not really lacking in his main skillset, but has lapses in specific area's and is truly a one dimensional fighter.

Pac to a much lesser degree, his intangibles are A+++ in timing/speed and power as a combo, making up for lapses in other area's, not the case with some other fighters that recieve flak, mostly for being overrated, such as what the Pavlik fans produce, thinking he's on the same level with superior fighters all around like Mikkel Kessler, but proving no insight as to why, as there isn't a reason why.