Slowest boxers in history?

Sure.

But BF24 threads have a tendency to wander far from their thread titles.

 

I should add CT that my reply wasn’t meant to be curt, dismissive or by any means control the parameters for discussion. Discussions should flow freely and if they need to slightly detour to make a point, so be it.

The key point was that original post (quoted in part) was part of a longer reply in opposition to the specific suggestion that Liston was slow and among the slowest.

So discussing Liston in general is of course fine - and if one thinks he was slow, that’s their opinion which they have a right to.

So, accounting for all opinions, the subject of Liston wasn’t really meandering off subject - rather, I simply see him as not fitting the category of being one of the slowest - not being part of the “conversation” was just a turn of phrase to say as much.

Totally agree that some fighters don’t have to be lightning fast to land - and whatever their hand speed, it can also be supplemented by skills, timing, reach etc.

Interesting to examine why some of the relatively slower fighters do manage to land.

Second career Foreman was awfully slow imo BUT he performed with a solid, fundamental skill set and good size (incl. height and reach).

He didn’t always land either but when he did, it could be hurtful and disruptive to his opponent - enough to allow George to land more punches in follow up and of course induce his opponent to back up thereafter - putting themselves into an even more vulnerable position.

Valuev had extreme, greater size, height and reach to facilitate the delivery of his punches even if they weren’t fast punches. So I guess those features would be key to whatever success he had landing his shots.

While I don’t think Liston was slow, certainly his reach helped to get the punches home - but he also threw nice inside punches of respectable speed. I linked a clip of his quick destruction of Wayne Bethea - just imo, Liston literally looked fast - a lighter, faster and younger Liston (212 lb?) than the more often seen version in Miami.

While Liston enjoyed the advantage of a telescopic jab it was also not slow. However, his jab was also multi purposed and I have observed a variance in its speed depending on the application - sometimes Sonny merely extended it out to obscure the vision of his opponent or employed it as a feint.

 

Foreman is the slowest I can recall.

The problem was not moving out of the way of one punch. It was moving out of the way for 12 rounds. He hit so heavy that his lack of hand speed really wasn't an issue because he was going to badly hurt you eventually. He didn't need volume to destroy you, he only needed to tag you once. That slowed you down and gave him all the time in the world to finish you off.

 

Joe Joyce

 

Completely untrue. I question how many of you guys have actually seen Liston and Foreman fight, as opposed to watching Ali interviews where he makes fun of them for being slow.

 

Excellent point regarding Liston's jab. Liston's ring IQ is highly highly underrated imo, and as you said the jab was very multi-faceted. Ali and Liston, imo had the most adaptable jabs out of the heavies imho. Someone who I think is overrated in this department is Holmes. Excellent jab for sure, but he couldn't change the direction of the jab after he threw it like Ali, and Liston, among others did which is why I think he'd have a much harder time against the likes of Frazier.

 

Celestino Caballero was really slow and awkward for a super bantam. I don't think I've seen someone so light who is so slow and awkward.

 

Seen both. And that’s my opinion.

Reckon I have watched more of Foreman than just about any other fighter. I loved him but he telegraphed everything, especially during the second incarnation of his career. Liston (whom I never even mentioned by the way) in the old black and white videos is harder to judge because the timing in a lot of old tapes is off and can’t be trusted. So, based on what I have seen (and none of us has seen every fighter so your opinion is worth no more or less than anyone else’s) I will stick with what I posted. Thanks.

 

The Liston comment wasn't referring to you, it was referring to the people in this thread and forum overall, who think Liston was slow, presumably judging him from the Ali fights.

Regarding Foreman, I can agree with the second incarnation of Foreman being included here but not the first. Their are actually a multitude of heavyweights today alone, who Foreman is much faster than.

One very underrated facet of Foreman was how he could slip to the side of his opponent to get a better angle frightengly quick.

He was also, surprisingly mobile and very quick at cutting the ring off.

If he was this mind-blowingly slow, Frazier would've demolished him.

Even Ali admitted he was surprised at the speed of Foreman.

 

That's the beauty of it.

 

Cleveland Williams and Floyd Patterson. I saw Ali too, but Liston was old(er) in that.

Honestly, I think your better argument would be to say that my perceptions of Liston's speed are being distorted by the fact that he's up against guys who are unusually fast-handed. Floyd aside, Williams was impressive in the way he could double or triple up on the hook.

In any event, that argument would work better from my perspective than trying to persuade me that I didn't see them.

EDIT: I don't remember him as particularly fast against Westphal, either, which I watched once or twice a while ago. Not that he needed to be. I may have seen one or two others that I don't recall now.

 

No, Don't show this video to Chok. Ha Ha.

 

Well yes, their's that factor as well. Patterson and Ali, respectively are number 1 and number 2 when it comes to handspeed at heavies. Williams was also very quick, though not quite on the level of the aforementioned two.

Haven't watched the Westphal bout in a while, but remember the KO blow being swift. I think he was overweight against Westphal as well (though he did carry the weight very well).

His hand speed, imo looked most impressive against Whitehurst and Cab of the fights we do have on film. Tbh, I think his hand-speed peaked before he did. Even by 1960 (where he was overall a better fighter imo) his hand-speed seemed to slow down a tad but even then he wasn't slow. Patterson was asked after their first bout why he lost, and his response was Liston was "to fast".

 

212. What do you think Liston's best weight was?

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Sonny_Liston_vs._Albert_Westphal

 

My apologies. I was thinking of his previous fight with King where he was 219.