Smarter fighter: Floyd or Juan

To me, Mayweather was hit consistently by Judah up until the 6th round, and even then, he kept eating straight lefts from a desperate Judah. A past-prime Marquez was able to get his foot on the outside for the vast majority of the 3rd Pacquiao fight and control the punching angle, while Floyd neglected this fundamental throughout the Judah fight.

Also, Floyd has never fought anyone as explosive as Pacquiao, and it's hard to be tactical when you're dropped once and and then again by a fighter of the same dimensions with a great handspeed, footspeed, and power advantage.

Again, Marquez reaches when he's overconfident and gets dropped, but that's more of a character issue than a measure of the heights his Ring IQ can reach. He feints and steps in such subtle ways in and out of range of his opponent to create openings (against Barrera, Pacquiao, Diaz, Casamayor) in ways I never see Floyd do. The biggest advantage Marquez has is in-range lateral movement, which IMO Floyd lacks far too much for his own good, which is also present in the DLH fight. He's very used to those three modes of fighting (countering in the center, countering off the ropes, or advancing with controlled pressure) and I just don't think he involves the same level of creativity and intelligence in his adjustments. The argument isn't who is more defensively responsible, but whose smarter.

 

That's what I'm doing for you pointing out some bad decisions Marquez made that led to him getting knocked down more. Peoples choices in the ring is a reflection of their ring iq?

Mayweather managed to keep a cool head and walk himself through it after Zab gave him a flash kd. Judah had faster hands, reflxes, and power.

Mayweather beat Judah more convincingly than Marquez has ever pacman.

 

I have Marquez winning 9-3 and/or 8-4 in their 3rd fight, which is the same margin I have for Floyd-Judah, but Marquez never got knocked down (or even hurt) in their third encounter, and Pacquiao is an exponentially better fighter than Judah.

You may have a point about choices reflecting Ring IQ, but again, Marquez has to go into the eye of the storm to get his punches off, and thus has to take more risks, and is thus many times more likely to be knocked down, especially when he has athletic disadvantages. How he recovers and adjusts from getting hurt or knocked down is the impressive part, and the part of the fight that shows the height to which his Ring IQ could take him.

 

I had it 1 less round for Zab, but decent scoring on your part for those fights. Marquez had the benefit of 24 prior real rounds with manny pac. I had him winning the first rematch also. Mayweather only had some sparring sessions back when they were teens to work off of for Judah. We would hope Marquez gets 9-3 against pacquiao in the trilogy after all the material he's had to work with on manny if his ring IQ is close to Mayweather's.

I gave examples with Mosley and Judah. Mayweather's adjustments are often real time and happen immediately in the same round. Marquez sometimes needs the minute in between rounds before he can apply what he figured out.

 

Yes sir, that's true.

BUT, did Floyd muscle him, lean on him, physically "bully" him at all?
Or would you say it was more of a fair "duel"? (chess match)

 

I'd say it's the opposite, actually. There are rounds that Floyd gets hit, and he evades his opponent for the rest of the round, until he comes back a round or two later and starts taking control. Mosley, in my opinion, gassed, and while Floyd adjusted well coming forward, I can't consider it a dramatic or creative adjustment given Shane's huffing and puffing. And I consider neglecting movement against Judah and Oscar as much larger flaws than getting caught or dropped reaching in certain moments. He adjusted out of a game-plan that made things much more difficult for himself in both fights, without ever choosing to move laterally in-range. A fighter at that level should show more ability to change tactics in terms of movement, not just change punches and/or distance. Marquez also fluidly changes from counter-puncher to aggressor, particularly brilliantly in the Pac fights, and I see Mayweather's adaptations as more gradual.

Marquez coming back from the Katsidis knockdown was figuring him out in exchanges by the end of the 3rd, and timing Diaz's punches after every exchange; Marquez also often predicts his opponent's punches to the point that he stops them, despite having less of a punch. The punch that ended it all for Diaz was an overhand right timed over an ever so slightly telegraphed left hand that he didn't see coming, which hurt him and led to the series of knockdowns and the KO that followed. To discourage Katsidis from throwing his left hook, he started catching the left hook on his right glove, and shooting a straight right with the same hand that blocked it with right after. That's an adjustment that he has to conjure by necessity due to being smaller, older, and less gifted, and it's just one example of the creative counters he has to employ because he can't sit back and pull-counter his opponents all night.

I can't help but feeling that despite the fact he gets hit more, it's worth more that he figures his opponents out to the point of destruction, past his best weight and past his physical peak, with limited athleticism and more creative and dramatic adjustments.

The rhythm was that of a chess-match, but anytime Marquez tried to slip his way into the pocket to find a range at which to land, Floyd would muscle him out of it in a bullying fashion with his forearm, effectively cancelling out his chance at any consistent offensive opportunities.

 

I really wanted to say Juan, but I didn't...

In my opinion, the best skill Floyd has is his ability to change his game plan mid-fight, and neutralize his opponents strengths.

He did it versus Oscar, Hatton, Zab and Mosley. Especially Hatton and Mosley.

 

Mayweather was still boxing and trying to get good hits in after Zab flash kd him in the 2nd. It took him only about 20-30 seconds to sort his head out and continue pressing the attack after Zab's flashed him. He managed to get in a few decent licks, but Zab did the better work and won the later part of that round too.

Floyd only needed 10 seconds to clear his head after Mosley smacked his temple with that titanic right. What stood out is that Mayweather won what was left of the round after that. Mosley ended up gassing because he was loading up on hard shots desperately trying to stop Mayweather after he caught him with the first big right, and Mayweather made the tactical choice to smother him up close and sap his stamina with bodyshots. That younger Mosley Floyd fought stamina couldn't be that bad by itself. Shane didn't gas a year later with pacquiao.

We haven't ever seen Mayweather compromise rounds and purposely give them away because he needs to in order to see what his opponent has to figure em out like Marquez did with Casa.

 

Not saying Juan is smarter than Floyd or any other boxer-type fighters for that matter but I think Juan's intelligence inside the ring is pretty much underrated.

The only problem with Juan is that he prefers open fighting rather than boxing his opponent's ears off. He prefers engaging rather than single hit counter-punching.

One other thing is that he pretty much lacks physical attributes compared to other boxers who are faster and more athletic that him.

Smarts - JMM really has but underrated because of the things I mentioned mostly above.

Most boxers never throw counter-punches the way JMM regularly does :good

 

Ohh Please! Void didn't walk Ortiz down! Give me a break.. :hat

 

floyd is smarter in the ring, but juan has cajones. He fights anyone unlike cherrypicker floyd

 

Simply put, being aware of and staying tight in your 'defensive responsibilities' IS a part of ring IQ.

IMO, this is ESPECIALLY true when that lack of 'defensive responsibility' is getting you put on your azz and turning 10-9 rounds in your favor into 10-8 rounds against you.

 

One question:

Is putting out your opponent part of ring IQ to you or not?

 

Not sure how this relates to my post.

Please clarify what you mean by 'put out'.

 

there was a reason why floyd beat marquez.