Smokin Joe Frazier vs Oleksandr Usyk

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by smallsteps, Mar 22, 2023.



  1. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    How many fighters with a lot of mental strength, solid chins, good engines, who were in or around their prime, not drug addicts and not journeymen did privileged A-side fighter Tyson ever beat, let alone KO?

    "skills, speed, size and power. A combination that Usyk has never seen before."

    Throw out size. Tyson was 5'10, 71 inch reach and still sub-220 lbs while roided to the gills.

    Usyk is small compared to a 6'5.5, 82 inch reach, 240-245 lbs behemoth like Joshua, he's big compared to Tyson.

    Joshua had skills, speed, size and power. Briedis had skills, speed, power and good southpaw pro experience. Tyson had skills, speed and power.

    Usyk-Briedis was largely contested at middle or long range and from round 6 onwards Usyk was the aggressor. Usyk-Chisora would be a better case study.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  2. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Usyk for reasons cited by Redbeard. Additionally, the hook is not the best weapon against a southpaw.
     
  3. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Frazier beat the greatest heavyweight of all time, Usyk has beaten who?
    Frazier grinds him into a fine powder
     
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  4. Jackman65

    Jackman65 FJB Full Member

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    Frasier was already long past prime at Usuk’s current age. All I can do is judge a fighter by his competition and Usyk has beaten the one top HW of his generation and the other one has no interest in fighting him it seems.

    Joe was a great fighter and I need to see if he beat any great southpaws. Usyk is a rare talent because there haven’t been many great HW southpaws. Either way, I’ll take 35 year old Usyk over 35 year old Frasier or 35 year old Ali. Foreman was still fighting at that age and I think this version of Usyk would easily outbox big George. Young Foreman was tough for anyone but Usyk’s footwork would be hard for him to handle. These threads are pointless because we will never know. It’s not worth arguing.

    I am more interested in modern day Usyk versus modern day Fury. There is no reason that fight can’t be made. Time Machine technology is lagging so Frasier Usyk is just something internet people can argue about on boxing forums.
     
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  5. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What? Frazier wasn't fighting at 35, why bring that up? Usyk has beaten Chaz Witherspoon, an ancient Chisora and Joshua at heavyweight.
    Frazier:? he beat
    Bonavena
    Machen
    Chuvalo
    Mathis
    Quarry
    Ellis
    and,,,Muhammed Ali

    To even suggest that the Frazier that beat Ali would lose to Usyk is textbook insanity.
    I'm not sure Usyk takes a prime Quarry
     
  6. The Real Lance

    The Real Lance Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Truth!

    I love Usyk but some of these guys are getting a little out of hand! Yes, the former CW is a top notch HW, possibly the best today.... but in an era where the HW division is UTTER DOG****. And has been for years now.

    Usyk would give a good fight to anyone IMO. But beat all these more proven HW's?? C'mon....
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
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  7. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Usyk schools Quarry you are crazy
     
  8. smoking mirrors

    smoking mirrors Active Member Full Member

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    70s and 80s heavyweights not only didn’t fight good southpaws, they didn’t fight southpaws at all. they would look at Usyk like some kind of alien.
     
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  9. Levook

    Levook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Thanks for that, said it much better than I could!

    The ridiculous, long-winded stat-based arguments are worthless without all of the wonderful context you posted here.
     
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  10. Levook

    Levook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Interesting numbers, what were the power punch percentages?

    And how do you figure Usyk has the greater engine, when Frazier went 3 more rounds while absorbing horrendous punishment of the kind Usyk has never known?
     
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  11. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    Redbeard7,

    I’ve already acknowledged that it would have been a factor. But again, a southpaw fighting an unorthodox fighter with a CERTAIN problematic style to them, is also a factor.

    It’s not baseless at all. That’s only in your mind. Again, it would have been a factor for sure. But completely writing off the chances of two ATG HW’s, JUST on the basis of them not having fought one, is frankly ridiculous.

    Like Usyk, a prime Chris Byrd was also a fine fighter. An elite level southpaw, with great speed and skills.

    Now how many southpaws had Wlad Klitschko fought before he’d fought Byrd? NONE. Not one. Not a few. NONE.

    Like Usyk, a prime Michael Nunn was also a fine fighter. Another elite level southpaw, with great speed, skills and a huge reach.

    Now how many elite southpaws had James Toney fought before fighting Nunn? NONE.

    So how was Wlad able to beat an elite southpaw when he’d never fought one before??

    How was Toney able to beat an elite southpaw when he’d never fought one before??

    So don’t come and tell me that prime versions of Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson, couldn’t have beaten Usyk, JUST on the grounds that they’d never fought a southpaw before.

    Because if that was some kind of a rule, then Wlad and Toney couldn’t have beaten Byrd and Nunn.

    Again, it also works both ways.

    Usyk has also never fought anyone like prime versions of Tyson, Frazier and Holmes before.

    There is zero evidence that Usyk would have beaten a prime Mike Tyson. ZERO.

    What a joker you are, to only look at the southpaw factor, and nothing else.

    Your guy could barely beat an inferior, non great CW in his prime.

    True. It goes both ways. But the realistic clash of styles is the most important thing to focus upon.

    I asked you to name an ELITE southpaw. So the answer to my question, is: NONE.

    Briedis never beat an elite level southpaw, yet he ALMOST beat Usyk. Yet you don’t believe that Mike could have, as he never fought one. Maybe if Mike had beaten Perez, it may have changed your opinion? Ha!

    He’s a fine fighter. But nowhere on the level of Mike. And no amount of your above spin is going to change that.

    I never said that Mike would have damaged Usyk. I said that his relentless attacks would have pushed Usyk back into defensive positions, which would have nullified his own offense. Mike wouldn’t have needed to have knocked out Usyk in order to have won.

    Mike went to war with Donovan Ruddock for 12 rounds. His engine was fine. But a Usyk fight wouldn’t have been a war, because Usyk would never have pressed him and fought him aggressively, like guys like Ruddock did. It would never have been a fast paced fight. Again, Usyk had nothing to have stopped Mike from pressuring him at every opportunity. Nothing to have deterred him from pouring forward.

    You can also name on NO HANDS, all of the guys who Usyk broke down, who even resembled a prime Mike Tyson.

    Unless Mike could have gotten those southpaw sparring sessions in, huh?

    There is ZERO evidence to support an opinion that Usyk would have humiliated a fighter with Mike’s style and abilities.

    More fantasy nonsense.

    Usyk had no jab or power to have deterred Mike. Mike would have just pressed him from the outset, limiting his time and space. So he’d either have fought back and come unstuck, or he’d have shelled up and fought defensively, which again, would have nullified his own offensive arsenal.

    Regarding Frazier, there’s no such thing as someone being far too removed from the present day. What a stupid statement that is, as though there’s some sort of cut off or something. SMH. Absolutely ridiculous.

    Styles make fights. And it’ll always be that way. Frazier was a pressure fighter. He had inferior skills to Usyk, but he had a style which would have caused Usyk issues. Writing off a fight, based upon the era that someone fought in, and NOT on the style that they would have brought to the table, is the absolute height of ignorance.

    The great Floyd Mayweather barely beat a crude Marcos Maidana in their first fight. And that was only 8 months after he’d easily beaten a much more skilled fighter in Canelo. Again, styles.

    Go and expand your knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
  12. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    Once again, it works both ways.

    I’ll sit at home and wait for you to list the fighters that Usyk has beaten, who possessed Mike’s style and skill set.

    Throw out size?

    He’s big compared to Mike?

    Yeah. But that wouldn’t have been a big advantage to him in this particular stylistic match up.

    AJ was very easy to hit for Usyk. But Mike’s small stature and his unique fighting style, would have provided Usyk with a much more elusive target.

    I don’t need a better case study.

    A non great CW who was tough, had huge success against Usyk, by limiting his space and fighting him, as opposed to playing chess with him.

    Mike would have jumped on him straight away and put him into a defensive position, where he’d have fought him up close on the inside.
     
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  13. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Member Full Member

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    I'm a huge Usyk fan but he would be stopped by Smokin'Joe Frazier.Smokin'Joe was the greatest pressure fighter in heavyweight history with one of the division's most devasting left-hooks.
    Unless you possess George Foreman/Sonny Liston type of punching power Frazier will grind you
    down with that suffocating non-stop pressure and those brutal left-hooks.
    That's exactly what would happen to Usyk.
     
  14. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    That doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have beaten him though does it?

    Has Usyk beaten any great HW’s?

    Has he beaten any great HW’s with the abilities and the styles of the best HW’s of the 70’s and 80’s?

    You can’t just look from one perspective.

    Yes, of course those HW’s would have had a shock.

    Again, the same would have applied to Usyk too.

    Usyk has never seen an Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson or a Holmes before.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2023
  15. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    Thanks.