smoking joe frazier

Ok, I will bite: How would Frazier's soft chin react after he took the beating Tyson took? Would he be able to take the brutal uppercuts from Lewis like a washed up Tyson did? Frazier wouldn't have been able to take 1/3 of the punches a washed-up Tyson did.

And if you think Tyson was shorter/smaller than Frazier then take a look at this: http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Sony+Pictures+Classics+Presents+Tyson+New+BqHBwSP8nSjl.jpg

Height-wise there doesn't seem to be a difference.

 

yes but you keep denying what it is that is SILLY and you are part of it. Let me explain, the ANTI-Frazier dudes are claiming the SHW's pummel Frazier in 2 rounds with Frazier landing ZERO. Ok that is SILLY. That is what you keep calling them SILLY about and rightly so. However, your just as SILLY and why ? The REAL argument isn't whether Frazier can land a punch, take a punch or survive past two rounds with the SHW's of the 90's and today, of course he could. The REAL argument is HOW Frazier would do against the SHW's of the last two decades, correct ? Thus the REAL argument is simply being debated using EXADURATIONs of perceptions of BIASED REALITY. The Frazier Fans in this thread are claiming his style would TRUMP the SHWs of the 90's and today. Thus if JOE FAN believes Lewis would beat Frazier, well rather than simply saying so JOE FAN claims that Lewis would STEAMROLL Frazier witch to me is STUPID but is IRRELEVENT and WHY? Say the TIME MACHINE made these fights, well AFTER the FIGHT was OVER the ARGUEMENT would not FOCUS on the FACT that Frazier was not STEAMROLLED in 2 rounds. The ARGUMENT would focus on how the FIGHT really played out. Take a hypothetic example of a fight with Lewis and Frazier playing out over 12 rds with Lewis winning this fight handily without ever having Frazier in trouble. Well the Frazier fans come in and SHOUT, "what happened to Lewis knocking Frazier out in less than 2 rds?" , well that is IRRELVENT as the ANTI-FRAZIER crowd says, "so what, who won the fight?" ,,,, So then the SILLY commets about Frazier not being able to LAST were NEVER the REAL point as the REAL point was that the Frazier Fans believe that Frazier could "BEAT" a few or many of the SHWs of the last 2 decades whereas the Anti-Frazier dudes DONT correct ???

You say that with a FAIR ref and the fight not held in Germany that WE have more of a fight then people are suspecting correct ??

What type of LACK of COMMITMENT is that? You already stated that claims of Frazier being blown out in 2 rounds by the SHW's was silly correct ? So all you COMMIT to is stating that there would be more of a FIGHT then people are suspecting ? Well no ****. Could Frazier be blasted out in 2 by one of the big SHWs? Well sure, however, I would not bet on it. So what are you REALLY saying? Are you ARGUING that the ANTI-FRAZIER dudes are WRONG about Frazier being blown out by todays SHWs ? Or are you arguing that Frazier would stand a even chance against them? Less than even? More than Even?

Here is the truth the way I see it. Frazier was tough as nails, had a PLODDING type style that was VERY effective and efficient. Far more effective and efficient then was CONSIDERED as his bobbing and weaving with angles was a work of art on its own helped crafted by some of the best trainers in the business. His LEFT HOOK was awesome. His pressure fighting and stamina were great. His CHIN was solid as a rock. Yes fine Foreman dropped him but to say that Fraziers chin was not a rock is just not true.

Ok, now its time where the Frazier Fans get to turn on me fully. I love Frazier, however, I do not think he was as good as Tyson was. Was he a better TRAINER, more committed, more focused overall than Tyson was? Yes for sure, Tyson was a emotional roller coaster after Cus past and then when Jimmy J got sick and Robin came into the fold Tyson IMO lost that focused EDGE and never got it back. That said, Tyson was a PHEMONENON, his handspeed compared to Frazier's was considerably faster. I believe Tyson's POWER was considerably more than Fraziers. I believe that Tyson was also STRONGER than Frazier, thus pushing , holding, shoving, muscling a opponent off balance in my opinion all went to Tyson. The problem was Tyson was by todays standards a SMALL-ISH heavy. Thus facing the bigger guys was simply a disadvantage for Tyson. Its one thing to face a far taller guy that is the same relative weigh as you, however, to face guys that are far taller and heavier, well its a disadvantage, can it be OVERCOME ? Of course it is overcome all the time, that does not change the face that it is still a DISADVANTAGE.

In Frazier's day dudes the size of Lewis, Bowe and the Klits were simply not as TALENTED as the SHW's of the last 2 decades. Did I just say that Lewis
etc were MORE TALENTED than HEAVYWEIGHTs of Fraziers ERA ? No I did not. I said that in FRAZIERs era the top dogs did not have the SIZE as well as the SKILL set that the SHWs of the last 2 decades have had. Were there NO TALENTED big guys back in Fraziers ERA ? Yes there were, I simply mean that they were not as BIG, not as well trained and not as TALENTED as they became in the 90's and beyond.

Pound for Pound I would rate Frazier higher than Lewis, Bowe and the Klits, that said, Head to Head without ROIDs etc being given to Frazier I would bet on all four of the SHW's mentioned to beat Frazier, maybe not Bowe, lol, well actually yeah Bowe as well, he simply was not that committed so I would have to follow him through his training camp before I put a penny on Bowe against anyone, lol,,,,, How would I guess they would beat Frazier? Probably over 12 rds in fights that MANY would claim the SHW's were too CAUTIOUS with Frazier not going for a knockout but simply content to WIN much like most of the Heavy Weight fights today. Witch is not wrong,, its just the way it is.

Now CUT the SILLY the **** out of this THREAD, Frazier would not walk through today's SHW's and todays SHW's would not walk through Frazier.

 

there is no height difference between Frazier and Tyson of more than a inch, Tyson in my opinion would have gone through Frazier, Tyson was a tiny bit bigger/thicker, far faster, hit harder as well as could take bigger shots. Tyson's CHIN is under-rated by many STILL. In the BUSTER DOUGLAS fight, Tyson's first loss, take a look at the huge shots Tyson takes LONG before Buster finally clocks Mike right out of there. That's a CHIN. As well in both Holyfield fights, Holy hammers Tyson with power shots for many rounds before Tyson finally begins to have trouble. Personally I always thought Holy came in ROIDED for those fights and I apologize to him if this was not true, however, ROIDED or not Holy hits TYSON with huge bombs that nobody really recalls and why ? Because Tyson was hitting Holy with huge bombs as well, I think everyone was waiting for Holy to get DAZED and thus the huge shots he keeps landing went very un-noticed in my opinion.

Frazier was great, I simply think Tyson was better.

 

Well the gist of it is this: Smokin' Joe was a great fighter in the golden era of HW boxing.

Let's leave him in his era, let's keep the memories of his great battles. Let's not take him out of his era because outside of his own era this great HW is quickly becoming the victim of ridiculously unfair matchups where he's outmatched and overwhelmed.

 

Lets get a couple of things clear as good as Tyson was he never beat a fighter as great as Ali Fraizer did ..And for those who think Lewis runs right through him well just look at how well LL did against the likes of Mercer who was only an inch taller than Fraizer but was nowhere near the puncher Joe was !

I find it laughable that people dismiss Joe against the likes of today's heavy's based on size ..

 

Great fighter :bbb:good

Horrible swimmer :-( atsch :smoke

 

You think Chisora beats Joe.

Your opinion is irrelevant.

 

You sound like you are attacking me because I don't say flat out what I think would happen, and I do that on purpose, because Frazier vs. current HW/SHW is a really broad topic. On a fight by fight basis, I think he does way better than people give him credit for, but I think he loses and wins a couple. I think that he beats Bowe, loses a SD against Lewis, beats Vitali, and has a toss up against Wlad, depending on which version of Wlad shows up. If he catches Wlad, I think he stops him, if Wlad is on point, and can keep him at the end of his punches, which I doubt, he could win a SD. That being said, I think that Joe is way more than a plodding, catcher. I think he has the ability to close the distance better than anyone Wlad has or ever will face, and if he catches him, will put his ass on notice. Whether his punch carries over well is another question all together. I don't know if his shots would affect a fighter as large as Wlad, it's all hypothetical.

I'd like to believe that this is a classic Good Big Man vs. a Great Small Man. I do believe Frazier's style was strong, well executed and perfectly matched to his body type, punch output, and ring temperament. I think he had the discipline to stick to the game plan under extremely heavy opposition, and could adjust accordingly. I think he was a great small man.

I don't think that Wlad is a great big man. I really like him, I actually enjoy his style, even if it is not a fan favorite, but I do think that he fights with some weaknesses (that add character to his style in my opinion) and I think that the right fighter, with the right amount of aggressiveness and know how could exploit those weaknesses.

I think that Frazier could break Wlad down over the distance. I think he'd be in his chest, putting out a volume he is just not used to. I think he'd try to keep the stick on him, would do a great job, but would lack the lead hand punch variety needed to keep Smoke off of him. If he could find him regularly, and keep him honest with that trailing hand, he'd give Smoke a long, hard night. But I think his footwork and length and lack of an inside game, coupled with a hopefully fair ref, would give Smoke the ability to work him over in the middle to late rounds, and make the possibility for a stoppage.

I just don't think Wlad could deal with the aggressiveness, power, and resilience of a prime Frazier, mostly because he's never seen something like it.

 

Forman was his misfortune

Forman hurt Frazier
Forman enabled Ali

If it wasn't for Forman

Frazier > Ali