Smoothest fighters by weightclass.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mantequilla, Sep 30, 2009.


  1. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

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    They don't need to be the greatest fighters, i'm just interested in who you would consider to be the smoothest to have fought in each weight division.

    Everyone has different takes on what being "smooth" entails, so i was thinking there might be some interesting picks here.

    I'll put a list up later.
     
  2. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    The weight classes with fighters I feel deserve mention:

    Flyweight: Hilario Zapata
    Bantamweight: Orlando Canizales/Miguel Lora
    Super Bantamweight: Wilfredo Gomez
    Featherweight: Willie Pep
    Lightweight: Rodolfo Gonzalez
    Light Welterweight: Nicolino Locche
    Welterweight: Jose Napoles/Wilfred Benitez
    Middleweight: George Benton/Sumbu Kalambay
    Light Heavyweight: John Conteh/Willie Pastrano
    Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali (who else, really?)
     
  3. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    Pea nailed many of them already, but you could mentioned Herol Graham as a contender for the lightmiddle slot.
     
  4. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    smooth to me is just everything really fluid and hard to hit, with Napoles being ideal for this that fluidity.

    Peas got most but ill just fill in


    Flyweight: Canto
    Lightweight: Roberto Duran
     
  5. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Nice thread. Expect some names to come out of left field on this one.

    That said, I'll give it a go without too much thought and pick the well known guys :

    105 - Pass
    108 - Hilario Zapata
    112 - Miguel Canto
    115 - Jiro Watanabe
    118 - Ruben Olivares/Orlando Canizales (tie)
    122 - Wilfredo Gomez
    126 - Ernesto Marcel (sorry Willie)
    130 - Kid Chocolate
    135 - Ismael Laguna, Esteban DeJesus and Rodolfo Gonzalez not being far behind
    140 - Pernell Whitaker
    147 - Jose Napoles/Luis Rodriguez (tie)
    154 - Mike McCallum
    160 - I'd say Hagler, even though he did roboticise fairly quickly when he passed his prime.
    168 - Pass
    175 - Harold Johnson, although Conteh would be right behind him
    200 - Pass
    200 + Ali
     
  6. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    DeJesus and Watanabe are great shouts
     
  7. teeto

    teeto Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I agree with Canto at flyweight.
     
  8. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

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    My opinions on this would probably be closer to Pea's list if sticking to just one or two per weightclass, though i agree with most of sweets picks as well.I'll cut and past his list for discussion(and sheer lethargy).

    105 - Nobody really worth mentioning here, Lopez is a stiff fighter imo.Poised, brutally efficient and regal looking perhaps, but never smooth.


    108 - Hilario Zapata, agree with sweet here, though Gushiken deserves mention as one of those fighter who to me managed to look stiff and mechanical at times and extremely fluid and smooth at others.When he gets into a groove slipping and countering his opponents shots he's beatiful to watch.Zapata perhaps too unorthodox for some.

    112 - Miguel Canto...agreed, always effortless.Zapata here as well of course.Arbachakov has extremely smooth footwork, but not so much in the upperbody department.Chitalada likewise.
    Bassa has the footwork and the supple smooth upperbody motion; probbaly the most Napoles-esque of the Flyweights, but spoiled by occasional lunging and sloppiness.Alfonso Lopez at his best is like a mini zapata\Marcel cross and i always found Espadas to be generally smooth, especially his hooking.Sasakul is kinda smooth in that distinctive Thai stylist manner.

    115 - Jiro Watanabe...Yep, beautifully smooth mover(as is Roman) and very fluid when he lets his hands go, but like Gushiken someone who i thought could be very stiff at times as well, with his hands often held rigidly in place under his chin and elbows tucked.

    118 - Ruben Olivares/Orlando Canizales (tie)....Never really thought Olivares was smooth, especially upperbody-wise, but not stiff either.For me, he's got an unusual style all his own.Sneaky and deceptive.

    I'd go with Canizales and Lora, but also Rose.Surprised you didn't give him a mention sweet.Great smooth movement and loose feinting, and he's got that Conteh'esque master counter-jabbing and smooth hooking down to a tee.IF only he had been a puncher.A lot of Ray Robinson in him as well imo.

    Davila is smooth in an unflashy way and Jofre, though he can look a bit stiff as well.Panama Al Brown has shades of Zapata in the little footage i've watched.Very elegant.


    122 - Wilfredo Gomez....of course, not much needs to be said there.I'd also mention the South African guys, N'cita, Bungu and Ledwaba.N'cita maybe too sloppy for some, but he was a nice mover and could be very fluid.Bungu had nice rhythmic upperbody angles and countering, while Ledwaba was a smooth, tidy fighter in general, just without the physical tools or power to really back it up.Hector Carrasquilla before Hong caved in his ribs and glass jaw is worth a mention as well.


    126 - Ernesto Marcel and Pep.Completely agree with Marcel.Everything he did had that smooth Panamanian groove to it.Also despite a dissapointing career, Antonio Gomez was very smooth with a nice left-hand work.Pedroza for most of his reign deserves mention too, and his fight with Carrasquilla is one of the smoother chessmatches at this weightclass.

    130 - Kid Chocolate...a good call.Mayweather too, though he's more just generally fluid and athletic than particularly smooth.His left hand style lets him down imo.

    135 -Ismael Laguna, Esteban DeJesus and Rodolfo Gonzalez not being far behind....i'd go with Gonzalez(who i think was as smooth as Napoles) and Dejesus for sure.Everything those two do is smooth.Laguna has his moments, especially with his upperbody movement, but his footwork and general style are a bit too herky-jerky and hyperactive for me.Buchanan is similar, juxtaposing some smooth footwork and Defence, with the elegant stiffness of other euro stylists like Benvenuti.

    Duran has great moments too especially towards the end of his reign like the Villa and third Dejesus bouts, yet i think he got smoother as he went up in weight.A bit too manic and wild here.I'll give an honourable mention to Ortiz-always fluid and perfectly well balanced.

    140 - Pernell Whitaker, Nicolino Locche...good calls(obviously pea at 135 as well)though offensively Whitaker went for volume and precise striaght punching over smooth punchpicking and counters and Locche has feet of lead in most of the available footage.Honourable mention to Emiliano Villa.


    147 - Jose Napoles/Luis Rodriguez/Wilfred Benitez....completely agree with Napoles and Benitez.jose being perhaps the definitive smooth all-time great.Robinson can't be forgotten either, another where almost everything he does is smooth, especially his footwork.I also like the footage of Burley as an all-encompassing 147-160 pick.Curry for a more understated textbook approach and though he was a half-arsed, sluggish fighter, Angel Espada at least had a very nice style.The Joe Bugner of smooth stylists.

    Can't agree with Rodriguez though.Awesome fighter, but the opposite of someone like napoles to me.Very herky-jerky.I'd put Gavilan in his place.


    154 - Mike McCallum, agree to an extent though i think he's another boxer who can look stiff as much as he does smooth.Slow feet maybe made him look worse against certain styles than he was in this respect.I'd probably go wiht Kalule here, but he's another i've seen called sluggish and stiff mostly by anti Leonard trolls mind you;)).I can sort of see his offensive style being called stiff, but his upperbody work and subtle footmovement was impeccably smooth.Anyone wanting to see what fighting Ricardo Lopz level opp can do for you;) should watch his two round destruction of mediocre former title challenger Ho Joo.


    160 - I'd say Hagler, even though he did roboticise fairly quickly when he passed his prime....Thoroughly agree with Hagler.This aspect of him is often underrated.Great,great feet.

    Also agree with Benton and Kalambay.I need to see more of Benton.He looks so elegant even in the suspect Carter fight.Kalambay was as smooth and good as someone like Canto in the same no-bull**** style, though he's unlikely to ever get fully appreciated by the more casual fan, due to the short reign and being the fall guy in probably the most disastrous performance ever in a big unification fight.

    What about Giardello?.One of the best slip and counter men at his peak.Another one who makes it all look easy.Toney the same for upperbody stuff, let down by his Khaosai galaxy feet.

    Probably a "what the ****!" choice to some, but i'll give a mention to fat stocky Sibson as well.Erratic underachiever, but when on point was like a less-skilled, bigger punching Canizales.Really speaks to Hagler's sklills that he was able to take him apart so conclusively.


    168 -Eubank....smooth upperbody movement, footwork off the back foot and uppercuts.has some bad flaws, but a much better technical fighter than often given credit for.


    175 - Harold Johnson, although Conteh would be right behind him.Agree with Johnson, Conteh and Pastrano and add in Moore, Charles, Mustafa and the vastly underrated Richie Kates.I would say Johnson was another fighter who could look quite rigid(in a good way mind)as often as he was loose and smooth.He doesn't really give the same smooth angles and upperbody movement as the others here, yet has a great textbook purity to him.


    200 - Pass...i suppose you could say Deleon when he could be bothered, but it doesn't feel right mentioning him somehow.Haye has a really poor-mans Conteh thing going at times with his D.I suppose he might do it for some, but i don't rate him too highly other than as a puncher.


    200 + Ali...and Jimmy Ellis.An underrated boxer-puncher even if he wasn't great at any one weight.
     
  9. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    Carlos DeLeon is a shoo in for the smoothest CW, at least I can't come up with anyone else that comes close at the moment.

    Man had some very underrated skills.
     
  10. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Great call on Richie Kates, Mantequilla. I agree whole-heartedly with his mention. Very sound by textbook standards, but always very fluid in everything he did. The Galindez fights are both excellent technical bouts, IMO. And I'm glad to see you mentioned Angel Espada and Hector Carrasquilla. Obviously I couldn't put them among the very best, but I always got the impression that they were very smooth fighters in the same stylistic mold as guys like Napoles and a lot of the Panamanian greats (Carrasquilla being Panamanian so it works out).
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Some guys who haven't been mentioned that maybe should be:

    Super-fly, Gilberto Roman

    Bantam, Carlos Zarate, very elegant

    Super-Bantam, Samarat Payakarun

    Feather, Howard Winstone.

    Light, Ken Buchanan, he made exaggerated moves that took the edge of his "smooth" but they ran into each other and he was never off balance

    LHW, Gene Tunney.

    Heavy, Jersey Joe Walcott. Arguably, Ali is herky jerky at times and although he's the natural pick, couldn't Walcott be labelled "smoother" in a literal sense?



    I'd bet on Holman Williams being #1 at MW if we were lucky enough to have footage, for what little that is worth.
     
  12. turpinr

    turpinr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    i like your choices mcgrain:good
     
  13. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agreed.


    I thought Zapata did some of his best offensive work at this weight (especially against Torres and Olivo) and I definitely found the offensive side of his fighting particularly smooth. He had some unorthodox defensive moves some might not categorise as smooth though, for sure.

    Well said, I agree with all that. Would you classify Luis Ibarra as a smoothie? He had some rigidity about him for sure, but also had that 'flow' about him which a lot of the Panamanians do when they start punching.

    Nothing to deny there.

    I guess the Olivares selection raises an important issue about the definition of smoothness. To an extent, in thinking about smoothness I think of fighters who can almost effortlessly 'flow' in their fighting, those who are able to somehow lock into a mode where they can synchronise in a way to avoid their opponents whilst instinctively launching punches of their own that seem to come out effortlessly and within the bounds of their limits. I think, at his best, Olivares is a fighter like this, even if the punches he threw did not look all that elegant.

    Rose and Panama Al Brown are great choices of course, Lora and Davilla as well.

    I haven't seen much of SA fighters mentioned here, so all I can do is learn.


    Good calls, Winstone (as Mac mentioned) is another than had smoothness about him at the weight.

    Mayweather's style is all about reflex and athleticism, not really smooth at all I don't think. I'd probably say Hector Camacho was smoother than him.

    Laguna was a bit herky jerky but he had a synchronic rhythm about him which to me at least, made him slick and smooth. Fighting just flowed out of him and his bounce was poetic.
     
  14. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Gavilan deserves a shout, but again for the same reasons I like someone like Laguna I like Rodriguez. He just had a habit of finding a rhythm and laying a poetic rat-a-tat on a man. Did look a little rigid with his posture, and his rangy arms and fat butt looked a little inelegant, but I'd still say he was smooth.

    Would you consider the likes of Curtis Cokes and Jose Stable smooth?

    Stable is a guy that could have had a great career at 140. Pity his career went to ****, he had some good ability.


    Fair call on Mike. His feet did detract from the smoothness somewhat, as was made evident by certain boxer types.


    Good picks, would never have thought of Benton, great call by Pea.

    Both these guys had a tendency to fight lazy, but they had their smooth moves no doubt.

    WTF :D Have to see more of Sibbo.


    Another guy I have to see more of.

    Good picks for sure. Qawi had some smooth defensive moves, but he came across too much like the hunchback of Notre Dame to ever be classified as smooth.


    :good
     
  15. Mantequilla

    Mantequilla Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I totally forgot about Walcott, McGrain.I'd take him over Ali at heavyweight.Payakaroon is a beautiful mover, forgot about him as well.

    Winstone's a great technician, but i don't know if i'd call him smooth.I think he's closer to the Ricardo Lopez approach, albeit as a pure-boxer.Ohba is similar.