So what exactly is wrong with Nat Fleischer's top 10 heavyweight list?

By that token, I declare that Juan Manuel Marquez beat Manny Pacquiao by UD, because on a rounds scoring system(which was the predominant scoring system for most of the gloved era), Marquez won it going away, and therefore Chris John is really the current linear world featherweight champion.

The scoring system used in the fight was the one accepted by the Commission at the time and agreed to in the contract for the fight. You can't come in after the fact and declare that the fight was actually a draw because you like what the result would have been if the rules hadn't been what they were. Somehow, I strongly doubt you'd be claiming it was a draw if the points tie-breaker had gone to LaStarza.

And you're wrong in claiming that it "would have been a draw in virtually any other time frame." For example, under a 10-point must system, Marciano would have won by two points(under the rounds system, he had no scoring advantage for the knockdown in the fourth, and the point deduction in the eighth, a round which he dominated, simply reversed the round instead of making it even). All of that is academic, though, because all fights are fought under the rules that were agreed to by the sanctioning commissions and fighters in their contracts, and neither you nor anyone else can go around tinkering with the rules and reversing history to their favor.

Um, yes they did. Everyone regarded Marciano as an undefeated professional from the beginning. There was never any, "But wait, that Golden Gloves three-round amateur tournament fight with Coley Wallace, who wouldn't turn pro for years yet was really a pro fight!" No one tried to argue anything like that, because it would've been silly. Why don't we take a gander through the contemporary newspaper accounts of Marciano's early fights?

"Marciano is unbeaten with 17 knockout victories in 18 pro starts."
-Long Beach Telegram, July 27, 1949

"Unbeaten Marciano has knocked out 21 opponents in 23 victories."
-Charleston Daily Mail, December 2, 1949

"Pat Richards of Columbus, Ohio, drops to a sitting position on the bottom rope after taking a terrific right-hand punch to the jaw from ROCKY MARCIANO (right), undefeated Brockton, Mass., heavyweight, in the second round of their semifinal fight in Madison Square Garden last night."
-Long Beach Telegram, December 3, 1949

There is no giant cover-up going on here. There was not some kind of collective amnesia over the next year after Marciano fought Wallace. Notice these guys all have the right numbers for Marciano's pro fights- everyone knew about the Epperson fight, everyone knew about the Wallace fight, everyone knew when they had happened and what had happened, and no one said, "But wait! We should go back and pretend that Marciano's amateur Golden Gloves tournament matches were actually professional fights!" Rather that is an idea spread around 50 years later by certain individuals who can't seem to deal with Marciano's legacy and want to edit history to to suit their agendas.

 

Of course not, but it is rare for a fighter to then claim an unbeaten pro (paid fight) record as the main building block of his greatness...

 

No, but Amir Khan did not turn pro win a fight fight, then go back to amateur, lose to Kindelan, then turn pro again!

 

You brought up Amir Khan! Khan for the moment is a work in progress, he has yet to build his reputation, yet alone claim greatness. Marciano and his fans did, and they point to a perfect pro record, I point to irregularities that taint that record.

I am not going to win this argument because too many disagree for the moment. But if it gets just a few thinking they have been spun by history, then eventually Marciano's '0' will be taken with a large pinch of salt.

 

And who cares if he had? Let's say Joe Frazier got $15 for a pro fight
in 1961, or George Foreman $15 for a pro fight in 1966, would you be
in favor of stripping them of their Olympic medals?

Who has the advantage anyway? a fighter with 200 or 300 amateur
bouts, or a fighter with 30 bouts, one or two of which are four or six
round pro bouts?

I don't know about any other posters, but having a pro bout and
then going back to amateur status is as far as "sins" go, not much.
I remember a great American college football player (an amateur, if
you are not American) years ago who graduated and went into the
NFL (Pro football), named Hugh McIhanney (sp). He quickly proved
to be as great in the pros as he had been in college. A reporter
asked him what was the main difference between playing in the pros
compared to playing in college. "I get paid less," was his answer,
and few doubted him.

My guess is no one took switching back and forth from pro to amateur
bouts too seriously in Marciano's case because it was
known to be a widespread practice. No one gophers through anyone
else's amateur bouts, seeking some reason or other to discredit him.

 

There is not spin. If we bring in amateur records, then others will have as much or more explaining to do. He lost a few fights by decision when much less esperienced than his opponents. Larry Holmes
was knocked out twice by Nick Wells. Ali was knocked out in the
amateurs. Frazier was beaten by Buster Mathis. Tyson by Henry
Tillman. We should throw all these into the mix in evaluating this men?

 

Did we get off track here?

 

The main building block of his greatness was knocking out every top
man he fought. Because you are totally hung up on that "0" does
not automatically mean everyone else is.

 

Just to bring something up. You use the definition of amateur of the
Olympic committee, but Marciano was fighting in American amateur
tournaments. Do you know the definition of amateur used by the
Golden Gloves, for example?

In the Olympics if you were a pro in one sport, such as baseball for
Jim Thorpe, you could not compete as an amateur in track and field.
Was that true of the Golden Gloves? Could you compete in the
Golden Gloves if you played semi-pro baseball.

 

1958:
Louis
Johnson
Marciano
Jeffries
Dempsey
Tunney
Corbett
Fitzsimmons
Schmeling
Jackson

1971:

Louis
Johnson
Marciano
Frazier
Dempsey
Ali
Liston
Tunney
Corbett
Schmeling