So, What Greats Would Crush The Most...

Foreman IMO would bust quite a few, and Jones is a great pick too of course. Many a fight he wins he wins damn easy.

 

What do you mean he looked like he wouldn't even get into the ring? When was that? Last time i checked, he was still the cocky, trash talking fighter, confident that he'd win.

Yeah well, everyone is going to look "improved" fighting the Joe Lipsey's and the Simon Brown's of the world. Looking good against Jones is a whole different matter.

I'm saying Jones was better at 168 than he was at 160, because he naturally filled out a bit better. 168 was Jones' peak weight, but he beat Hopkins at 160, Bernard's peak weight.

Well we're gonna have to disagree there, then. Toney always gets a shitload of excuses for his losses, but i don't see what was missing that night. If memory serves me well, Nunn had him outboxed as well. Griffin beat him. Jones shut him out and i don't see how Toney can ever do significantly better; winning 5 rounds against Jones? How?!?! He couldn't even win a single round when he was undefeated, at the peak of his career and confidence.

As for Hopkins, he went more to a defensive counter punching style during his prime; how is that gonna help him against Jones? Roy would make him fight his fight just like he did in '93.

 

He was confident, cocky and trashtalking when Peter beat him. That doesn´t mean anything. He looked weak and weightdrained. That´s what I meant - and I don´t like this guy.

Sure, but he also looked good against fighters like Johnson, JDJ, Trinidad, Echols, Joppy. He just got much better. If you deny that you should by yourself some glasses.

I agree with that. But he didn´t beat a peak Hopkins while he himself was entering his prime. Hopkins entered his 4 years later.

Come on, open your eyes. It´s so obvious that Toney wasn´t at his best. Yeah, Toney was a very inconsistent fighter but here he clearly was weightdrained. We all know his difficulties making weight.

I disagree. '93 Roy was the more developed, more experienced fighter but later on Hopkins equaled there and even surpassed Jones in terms of development as a fighter. And most important Hopkins became a far better ring general than Jones ever was. He never ever fought the fight of another man till he was too old to execute his own game plan.
The second time they would have met they would fight on even terms with Hopkins making Jones fighting his fight but Jones neutralizing this advantage with his speed and athleticism. 50/50 fight.

 

Yeah, faulting Tyson for losing to Lewis is pretty absurd.

 

Well, i must have missed that part where he looked weak and weight drained. He's always had those excuses to be frank, and was outboxed before and after.

The first sign of being weight drain is a sudden drop in stamina. However, Toney actually made great effort by managing to lose some rounds in close fashion, instead of totally being outclassed. And those rounds were late in the fight. Where was the stamina drop?

I'm not denying that he became better, i'm just saying that the style he adopted would make him match up even worse with Jones than when he tried to pressure him in 1993.

Hopkins was the better the ring general because basically every opponent around that period was outclassed or a natural welterweight. Now don't get me wrong; he was a great ring general, but i'm wondering how he is going to make Jones do anything. Roy will just stay on the outside and potshot as he's always done. And Hopkins will have to chase him everywhere, doing as Jones pleases.

How can Hopkins make Jones fight his fight? He already tried pressuring him, seemingly the best option, and that one didn't work.

 

Toney´s style never cost that much energy and he looked weak throughout the fight. His punches seemed to have no pop, he looked slow, his reflexes and defences weren´t as good as normally.
Yeah, he was outboxed before and after but that has nothing to do with this particular fight and his weight-problems then.

That´s just not right you are talking like Hopkins fought purely as a counterpuncher after the Jones fight. That´s not right. He also fought oftern very aggressive even swarming his opponent. The Johnson fight is the best example.

Bad arguments. Wright himself forced his style on every of his opponents but Hopkins made him fight his fight, not by using his size but by takinga away Wrights strength. The same with Trinidad. Even against DLH he wasn´t using his size as a weapon but proved he could win without that advantage.

He could fight Jones two ways. Swarming, pressureing him or playing counterpuncher. Yes the first time pressuring didn´t work but that wasn´t the Hopkins of '97-'02. Cut off the ring and while coming forward setting traps for Jones. Using lead rights when Jones tries to come in and rough him up when they are there. He would have to force Jones inte defensive mode and make him work very hard. Would be hard work and if he fought like this I would make Jones still the slight favourite but it would be possible for Hopkins to win.
Or he could make Jones come to him and counter, time, him. Yep, that didn´t work for Toney but Toney was weight-drained and never had as fast feet or as good footwork as Hopkins. His jab, lead right hands, footwork and tieing Jones up while roughing him up on the inside would be the key weapons. this fight would have a slower pace than the other I described, more of a tactical battle in which Jones´ athleticism would be negated by Hopkins´ defensive, footwork and inside work for large parts of the round.
What I could see happen in both fights is Jones coming in/forward with a left hook while Hopkins counters it with a "lunge-in"-right and hits Jones right on the button. The power of Jones coming forward and Hopkins lunging in would be too much for Jones chin imo btu that would perhaps happen in one of ten fights.

 

Well, okay you believe that. On paper it all works great, but when they stepped in the ring with Jones at 168 they all found out: timing him, setting traps and countering him is a lot more easy said than done.


As for Toney's style not requiring much energy.... have you ever boxed?

 

Nope, just fought in some Karate tournaments. Toney´s style is one that doesn´t need as much energy as a mover, swarmer or so would need. that´s what I meant, it´s obvious that every style need energy

Yep, they all found out and which of them was as good as Hopkins? Not even Toney was, especially not the one Jones faced ^^. You said yourself that Hopkins looked only improved against the Joe Lipsey´s of the world, some thing similar could be said about Jones.

 

Well, i'd say Hopkins was as good as Hopkins was.

But okay, we're never going to agree on this issue.

 

It seems so. Both were great, both will be similar well remembered. Everything else is purely hypothetical.

 

Ruddock, Tua, Golota, Briggs, Grant and Tua amongst others all hit much, much harder than a light breeze and Lewis didn't go down.

Prime Lewis wears down prime Tyson to stop him late (though a closer contest than their actual fight, obviously. Close to 50/50 but I'd go with Lewis if I really had to bet).

 

To comment on the hypothetical Jones-Hopkins rematch that Loewe and ChrisPontius were arguing about, I'm a much bigger fan of Hopkins than Jones, but if I had to pick I'd take RJJ in this fight. I think it's something close to 50/50, and I certainly can see Hopkins winning, but Jones was the fighter to beat prime Hopkins.

B-Hop is one of the few fighters that I think would be served better to stay away, look to counter, and try and make jones come to him than to attack and be aggressive.

He was never a huge puncher, and unless you have very fast hands and an insane workrate along with excellent pressuring tactics, you have to have a powerful punch to beat Jones by using pressure.

Hopkins' best assets were his timing, accuracy, footwork, defensive skills, range control, and overall general versatility. While he was clearly a complete fighter in his prime, these were his best attributes, not power and pressure, although when he chose to he could be an outstanding aggressive fighter.

Hopkins' best bet would be to move around the ring, make Roy come to him and time him because as the saying goes, timing beats speed. Make RJJ miss and deliver a well placed and timed counter, then only at times go forward and get inside and rough Roy up, but only when the opening is there and he has the chance to get inside.

Even in this fight RJJ could win, he's just too fast, hand and foot speed. I think something that is overlooked a lot is how smart a fighter Roy himself was. He wasn't just raw natural talent, the man knew what to do and when to do it, and what not to do against certain opposition.

B-Hop could pull it off, but at best he gets 50/50 chances and I'd unfortunately have to go with Jones.

Unless were talking about a murderous puncher who controls range and pace against everyone, say like Bob Foster, or a complete and virtually flawless fighter that is at least the same size as RJJ, say like Ezzard Charles, Jones has a very good chance at beating everyone, and I would include prime Hopkins in that list of great fighters.

 

duran hands down..he is a beast if i have ever seen one

 

that´s the only thing I was argueing the whole time. Jones/B-Hop prime 4 prime would have been a 50/50 fight. I would pick Hopkins but that´s just me beeing a fan.