Some (dare I say it) critical comments after watching LEONARD v HEARNS I again....

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by DINAMITA, Feb 14, 2009.


  1. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Have you ever watched a fight again after a long long time, and had a completely different impression of it the second time?

    That's what I experienced last night when re-watching Leonard-Hearns I for the first time in years today.

    This thread isn't intended to be overly critical of either man. When I made my recent p4p top 100 thread, I think I had Sugar Ray around 14th and the Hitman around 34th, so I rate both men very highly. I think SRL is one of the most talented and skilled all-round fighters to ever step into the ring. I think Hearns is an ATG fighter at 147 and 154, and a weight-jumping miracle. For a ww to end his career fighting at good level at cruiserweight is pretty spectacular, and always will be.


    However, there were a few things that came to me as a bit of a shock on my re-watch.

    The first thing was: I'm certain I've seen people on here many times proclaiming that this is one of the best fights ever, that it's a better fight than Duran-Leonard I, that it's SRL's best win, that it's one of Tommy's best performances before the 14th round, etc...

    Sorry, but I just don't see any of that.

    For a start, I don't think it's very exciting nor do I think it is a fight of particularly high quality.

    Duran-Leonard I is so so vastly superior in terms of excitement value and pure high octane, high skill, high quality action that I really don't see the comparison at all.


    And, crucially, I don't believe it shows either man in a very good light!!

    For me, this fight is a bit like Mayweather v De La Hoya where Mayweather fans sat through one of the most turgid performances of Floyd's career, and then after he edged the decision their memories were erased and they were lauding a stunning performance of skill up there with Whitaker-Nelson!!


    I am aware that I'm maybe sounding terribly cynical, but I don't think either man performed very well on the night.

    Sugar Ray Leonard's performance was bizarre. He was languid, lethargic, reserved - not anything like himself. This can't even be attributed to Hearns's boxing, because SRL was in this mode straight from the first bell. He never exerted himself at any point, never opened up and tried to win whole rounds with sustained strategic attacks, he seemed content to stay in the fight, minimize the damage from Hearns's shots, and once or twice he exploded into life briefly before settling back into his torpor.

    A few times Angelo Dundee could be heard to shout at him: "You're blowin' it kid!", which makes me think this could not have been a deliberate tactic, but by the end I felt that it was Leonard's tactic that only he himself had in his mind before the fight. The only way I can account for his lethargy is by thinking that he thought that Tommy has a weak chin/poor resilience beforehand, and planned to conserve energy so that he could wait until around the 13th before opening up and stopping the tired Hitman. You could see how as soon as Tommy was wobbling in the 14th, Ray was waving the referee in rather than just finish the job himself, he was clearly concerned with the time, he wanted it stopped as soon as possible rather than have to hunt the KO.


    It seems very strange for me to now criticize Tommy's performance as well, I realize that. He comfortably outboxed one of the greatest boxers in history over 13 rounds and had built up a clear points advantage by the time of the stoppage.

    Yes, I appreciate how good a feat of boxing that was. However, that only tells half the story. For a start, Leonard was not actually putting up much of a fight. Had SRL thrown so few punches or mounted so few sustained attacks against any top fighter at the time, he would've slumped behind on points. Now, SRL may have adopted this approach purely because it was Tommy he was fighting and so would not have fought like this against anyone else, but still the point is valid, Tommy was doing what he had to do, doing what he needed to, throwing punches and winning rounds, but to me he never looked flat out either - because he didn't have to be. Leonard was plodding around the ring, looking compact, looking strong, but never really forcing the action for any length of time. Tommy boxed as well as he was made to, but he was never having to fight to the best of his capabilities.

    I suppose so far has not actually been critical of Tommy, more a remark on his performance and on the fight in general.

    But, and I know this is a well-worn path and a thing which is generally accepted, I really was pretty taken aback at just how weak Tommy's chin was. It may very well have been something to do with him coming in at only 145lbs, but it seemed to me that almost every time Tommy was caught with even a glancing blow, he looked visibly hurt. Any clean punch had his legs going, and when it came to the 13th, it really didn't take all that much artillery to leave Tommy a dead man walking.



    For all the hype and allure of Leonard v Hearns I, I think Leonard performed far better against Benitez, and far far better even in his defeat to Duran!! I think Tommy was better against Benitez too, a better showcase of his all-round abilities.



    What do you guys think, am I right to an extent :good or was I high on crack when watching this fight?? :rasta
     
  2. ocelot

    ocelot Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'll have to see it again. You may very well be right. Either way, both fighters are ATGs. That's enough in my book. Boxing is a sport that always leaves you scratching your head in one way or another. That fight is a great chapter in Boxing's history, right up there with Hagler v Hearns (no action in that fight whatsoever! lol)
     
  3. Thread Stealer

    Thread Stealer Loyal Member Full Member

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    For action, the fight isn't very good.

    Much of it was tactical. Even some boos because of the slow pacing, especially rounds 9 thru 12.

    The shifts in momentum and skill level were great, but the rematch was actually better for action.
     
  4. jc

    jc Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ya know what i havnt seen this fight for a while. I have the dvd kicking about, ill get back to you...:bbb
     
  5. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    I didn't think the skill level was great though. Watch it again but don't think of them as being Leonard and Hearns, pretend you're watching two guys you've never heard of. Leonard is pedestrian and reserved save for a couple of brief bursts of his quality, Hearns is doing what he needs to with a steady jabbing, boxing and moving performance, but not really having to open up and show the best of his abilities. Compared to their performances in other fights in the same period, both are below par IMO.
     
  6. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    I agree, DINAMITA.

    Before I actually watched this fight the first time, there was a buzz about the fight. People ranking it among the greatest fights of all time, but I did not see any of that. The quality of the fighters made it exciting, and the shifts in momentum, and the climax, were especially exciting. Other than that, it was a skillful chess match, with Leonard coming out second best, and seemingly being content with staying on the outside being out jabbed and out boxed. Ultimately, the two seemed to cancel one another out, or were both very conscious of losing that they didn't want to take any risks. In any event, there wasn't a great deal of activity.

    That said, I don't really believe Duran vs Leonard 1 is anywhere near as good as people say it is. Often described as the most skillful brawl ever, I think it was a wrestling match for most part, with Leonard fighting the wrong fight.

    And just for the record, the most skillful brawl distinction, in my humble opinion, rightly belongs to Morales/Barrera 1.
     
  7. Tricks77

    Tricks77 Sergio By God Martinez Full Member

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    Great points. I think people get caught up more in the personalities and stature of the two fighters than the actual fight itself. As Dinamita says, if one pretends it's not Leonard and Hearns fighting, the fight is a lot more underwhelming.

    Dinamita, you say that sometimes when you go back and watch a fight after a long time you have completely different opinions of it. Well, that's very true. After a length of time, often the emotion and the hype have worn off and one can more objectively judge a fight. I agree with you 100%.
     
  8. o_money

    o_money Boxing Junkie banned

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    You know whats funny: I 100% agree with just about everything you've said here. I've only watched the fight once and when I did I was expecting to see some masterclass of pugilism but it was a completely **** fight. Its funny you mention Mayweather DLH, cause in my opinion that was a way better fight.

    In fact the opposite of what happened to you with this fight happened to me with the DLH fight. I re-watched it the other day and well frankly I was actaully suprised by howmuch better it was then what I had thought it was at the time. I'd imagine that if Mayweather had knocked DLH out in the final rounds people would have walked away from that fight with different feelings about it too.
     
  9. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    I don't think it was a **** fight. Just doesn't live up to the hype.
     
  10. Thread Stealer

    Thread Stealer Loyal Member Full Member

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    Right after people watched Mayweather-DLH, the consensus around here was that it was a decent fight. I remember doing a poll rating the fight and the most popular vote was a 7 out of 10.

    That might've been because of the low expectations by many and the fear that it would be like the Baldomir fight. And then there's the suspense factor and not knowing what's going to happen.

    Now the prevailing opinion is that the fight sucked.
     
  11. Arriba

    Arriba Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Duran/Leonard I?
     
  12. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    My original post was describing how I think that could be the most overrated fight in history, along with Hearns - Leonard 1.

    This could be a case of watching Taxi Driver, and not fully appreciating it until the 3rd watch - but for now, Barrera/Morales 1 is the most skillfull brawl I've ever seen.
     
  13. Arriba

    Arriba Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I've now seen everything.

    To each their own...but jeez man.
     
  14. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    Sorry for being such a disappointment. :|
     
  15. Arriba

    Arriba Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :lol:

    I was just certain that that was one of the few fights (along with Barrera/Morales I, Pac/Morales I and Tito/Vargas) that was universally loved.

    Now I feel cold and alone inside.