Some points i have learnt about Marciano

@The Undefeated Lachbuster was this you?

 

nope, mcvey has been complaining about "he would find a way" long before i ever even joined this forum

interestingly enough he thinks Dempsey would beat Lewis though, so take that how you will

 

I honestly can't see how Dempsey even makes 4 rounds with Lewis let alone beats him. Dempsey's chin was average, his speed and accuracy were good but his Power wasn't better than Bruno, Mercer, Rahman McCall imo. He was very susceptible to a strong uppercut in which Lewis had and he was 4" smaller with a 7" shorter reach and wasn't as good a boxer.

 

Dempsey absolutely hits harder than McCall and imo hits harder than Mercer and Rahman. Bruno is debatable, i might lean to Bruno but Dempsey is the better puncher and better fighter.

Mercer gave Lewis all sorts of trouble at 6'1" 77" reach and Dempsey has the same proportions and is also GREASE LIGHTING FAST. Like Dempsey is fast as hell man, easily would be Lewis' fastest opponent outside of shot Tommy Morrison

Dempsey's chin is average (id say a little above average but to each their own), but Lewis' was poor. Dempsey is an extremely fast, explosive starter with knockout power in either hand. He also has very competent defense and a good understanding of distance. IMO he's all wrong for Lewis.

I think everyone on here should know i stop caring about size when both fighters reach a certain point. Weight has diminishing returns, it means way more to be 20lbs heavier against a bantam than to be 20lbs heavier against a heavyweight. Of course Lewis outweighs Demspey by 40lbs though so thats tricky, im still fiddling with where i think the points of full diminish are

 

It worked for Finito Lopez, why not Rocky?

 

He gets grappled into uselessness just like Tyson and Tua did.

 

McCall was 40lbs heavier than Dempsey, 3 stone will add power to anyone. Also regardless of who hits harder Dempsey wasn't the type to stand and counter with straight rights like McCall did

Why? Coz he pummeled an old Willard? Willard's chins overrated, he was never faced anyone good over than Dempsey, Lewis of the Rudduck, Golota, Grant, Birtha or Rahman 2 fights do the same but finish him in round 1 with a fair few less KDs

I'll put it this way, put a prime Bruno vs Dempsey's HW title run opposition and he's KOs all of them quickly. And brutally.

Mercer had the type of jab to give Lewis those problems, Dempsey doesn't. Dempsey was also 50lbs lighter than Mercer. As I said I think Mercer hits harder

He's as fast as Lewis...
Just smaller, similar chins, less power, worse defence,

Dempsey was iced in a round by Jim Flynn... Both punches that KOed Lewis would have KOed Dempsey.
And I doubt Dempsey would've taken the punches that Lewis did against Mercer and Vitali for as long as Lewis did.

Lewis would put that fire out with an Uppercut or 2. Dempsey would keep getting hit with them and 1-2s until he was stopped. Also where was this KO power against Tommy Gibbons? Lewis would've KOed him easily.

Not as good as Lewis's, or as good as Lewis's offence.

Not as good as Lewis's...

Why? Lewis has virtually every advantage. And the one he doesn't is chin and even that's debatable.

What? Weight will always play a roll, 40 to 50 lbs of athletic mucsle will always give an advantage

 

All of them in the same night no doubt

 

Punch power is something you're born with. This is why Shavers hits harder than Valuev, Wilder hits harder than Fury and Dempsey hits harder than Willard. Dempsey has the better punching feats

Willard fought many good fighters including Johnson and McCarty. His chin was good, he was never down before Dempsey. Lewis would absolutely not finish Willard like Dempsey did. that's not even Lewis's style to start do fast.

Bruno would find difficulties with Fulton and Gibbons, and losses to Tunney and Sharkey (on a good night).

Dempsey was 25lbs lighter than prime Mercer, Mercer was out of shape for that fight. Blubber doesn't help anyone. Stop it with the weight fetishising, you overrate it ridiculously. Weight is a factor that's been overcame inumerous times in boxing

The Flynn fight was a dive. I would've expected you to know this by now, I'm actually disappointed. Lewis got iced by a journeyman mediocre puncher in McCall. Dempsey fought real big punching contenders like Fulton, KO Brennan, Willard, Morris, etc

In regard to your next 3 comments: Dempsey absolutely has the better offense. He is the more accurate and explosive puncher. He is faster with his offense and his defense fits seemlessly with his offense.

I acknowledge and agree with you that Lewis has better distance control, I was nearly pointing out that someone who knows how to control distance can land a big shot on Lewis.

Dempsey is much faster than Lewis and has minor advantages in chin and stamina. He is the better puncher. Harder is debatable

 

Better than KOing Lewis? I doubt it.

An ancient Johnson and McCarty? McCarty wasn't in the same league as Dempsey or Lewis for power. Dempsey did what he should've done, but Lewis would've done it worse, and finished it in one.

Well considering Dempsey was by far and away the hardest puncher he faced I'd hope so. And Dempsey with 7 KDs couldn't do him in 1.

Please nots the versions of Lewis I said all fights ended early and explosively, most of them against better fighters than Willard. Botha and Grant not withstanding.

Bruno KOs all of them quickly. None of them were built to take his power.

What? The best Dempsey was 187lbs, the best Mercer was 238lbs
That's alot closer to 50 than 25, in fact it's over 50.

Ever see a better Mercer performance? That's Mercer at his best.

Stop with the

Name a time where an ATG on his best night was beaten by someone 45lbs less. It doesn't happen.

Proof?

Better puncher than Flynn or Firpo. And that counter right hand would've done Dempsey as well.

They ain't better than Rahman, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, Tua, Vitali, Briggs and McCall.

Had they gone against eachothers opponents I'd back Lewis to KO anyone who took Dempsey the distance, and anyone he KOed. I wouldn't bet the other way round

When did Dempsey pummel someone as good as Golota that quickly? Please don't say Firpo or Willard.

Agreed.

Then why did only 2 people do it? And both times were against Lewis who was not at his best.
Fighters with better distance management skills didn't.

Eh.

When did he show these? When he was launched out of the ring by Firpo? His Stamina was fine, like Lewis's

Both of these are very debate.

 

Ever fought a fight with a broken jaw.

 

He won with a broken nose.

 

Size in the hwt division is no indication of how hits harder. Dempsey was a ferocious and determined fighter who could KO an opponent regardless of size with one punch from either fist. Reason is the ability to hit very hard is based primarily upon technique. Add to this speed, timing, two fisted combinations AND THEN weight. All this together forms overall punching power. Mercer never struck me as a devastating puncher.

 

Dempsey broke Willard's everything in a blaze of fury. The fact that Willard came out for the second round is a testament to his toughness

Tunney could absolutely take it, thats even if he had too. I can see Sharkey and Tunney outboxing him thoroughly. Bruno was an ok contender, not sure why you suddenly propelled him to god status

at his best ring generalship wise but his best weight for athleticism and speed was 225lbs.

(these arent ATGs but they're all champions in their prime so the points stand)
Sharkey UD Carnera
Haye UD Valuev
Wilder SD Fury (it was a draw but the weight disparage was there and Wilder knocked him down twice)
Morrison UD Foreman
Holyfield MD Bowe
Byrd RTD Vitali
Langford UD McVea, Jeannette and Wills
Walker D12 Sharkey (again a draw but the point stands)

Its rare you see 2 ATGs in their primes fight each other anyways. Weight disparage has been overcome before and itll continue to be overcome. You can even see this between average fighters like when Barbados Joe and Charlie Mitchell used to knock out heavyweight contenders whilst weighing 40lbs less

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Jack_Dempsey_vs._Fireman_Jim_Flynn_(1st_meeting)

• Three Salt Lake City men who were at the fight told the Chicago Tribune in 1920 that Dempsey took a dive for $500.
• Dempsey’s first wife, Maxine Cates, told anyone who would listen that Dempsey threw the fight. "They offered him more money to lose than to win and he took it," she said

It's common knowledge, c'mon man

Rahman and McCall were journeymen. Mercer and Briggs were paper champs (though Mercer was a good one, even if he was outboxed by ancient Holmes), Morrison was worse that Mercer and was waaaay past it when he fought Lewis. For ****s sake it was after the HIV scandal. Tua curled up into a ball and did nothing the entire fight, Lewis fought a punching bag. Vitali was beating the **** out of him until the cut stoppage. Bruno was a decent contender who achieved very little.

I give Lewis credit for beating Vitali even if it was a fluke, because Lewis was past his best. I also give Lewis credit for beating Holyfield, surprised you didnt mention that one. I dunno what was going through Tua's mind during that fight but maybe Lewis beat him into submission so i cant take credit from that one either. BTW MERCER SHOULD'VE WON THE DECISION. Bruno is a good win. I think the win against Bruno is equivalent to Dempsey's win over Morris, though Dempsey's was in a better fashion. Dempsey has absolutely nothing to match the win against Vitali, other than the argument that maybe Dempsey, in the new era, would've won a DQ against Tunney for the long count

Fine. Levinsky, Fulton, Morris, Miske (though miske was sick he was made of iron), Gunboat, Flynn. Kind of scummy to take away Dempsey's best performance ever and a stoppage against a young prime big hitter when Dempsey himself was past his best. A good win

Im pointing out it was a weakness not that Lewis couldnt overcome it with his own skills. Dempsey would be the best man Lewis ever fought outside Holyfield (even then i rate Dempsey higher)

No, he showed it when he got back into the ring and knocked Firpo out. Tough SOB. Dempsey stopped Brennan in the 12th round and went the full 15 in a technical competition with Gibbons (both of these were Dempsey past his best too). Lewis, on the other hand, gasses mid rounds