Some points i have learnt about Marciano

Dempsey kos lewis without much difficulty...and lewis was good ...but a target for dempsey

 

Or a discredit to Dempsey's power. Look at both ways.

I don't. You don't need to be a god to beat the contenders Dempsey was beating. Now I'm not sure why you propel Dempsey's opposition to such a high level, they were very sub par for an ATG.

No it really doesn't. The whole point was to prove that an ATG in his prime wouldn't be beaten by anyone who weighs 40lbs less. It's why Manny Pacquiao wouldn't beat Oleksander Usyk
Or why Marciano wouldn't beat Bowe
Or why Hagler wouldn't beat Joe Louis or Joe Frazier

This whole list is irrelevant anyway, however you said they were all prime, Foreman, Bowe and Valuev were not prime. And would've beaten those guys whilst prime, and it's arguable Bowe and Valuev didn't lose anyway.

Vitali lost because he quit, he was beating Byrd easily. With a shoulder injury.
Wilder was robbed against Fury, and Wilder has freakish power, Dempsey doesn't and Fury isn't Lewis.

Yes, but it's a lot rarer you see one lose to someone 40lbs less.

Not one HW contender of note, let alone someone comparable to Lewis.

Journey man is a strange thing to call Rahman, he was clearly more than a journeyman. McCall fair enough but Rahman was much better than a Journeyman. Someone like Kevin Johnson is a journeyman.

Paper champs maybe but good punchers, better than the ones Dempsey faced.

I know he was shot, he was still a hard puncher and I'd rate him harder than Dempsey even then, just not as good at anything else.

Because Lewis beat him into one. He'd be the hardest puncher that Dempsey had faced.

You do know that your proving my point for me, don't you? Lewis showed a better chin than advertised against Vitali.

So was every one who Dempsey beat. Bruno would be his best win outside of maybe Sharkey. Also he'd be the hardest hitter Dempsey faced.


Right so now you've picked apart the punchers I've put forward for the wrong reasons to you want me to return the favour? Or can I not bother coz we already know Lewis comes out on top by a long distance?

Nah it was a draw at best, Lewis won imo but a draw would be fine. Mercer win would be a bad decision.

Bruno would hurt Morris, badly.

Not one was as good as Golota.

Well considering neither were as quick or as good as Golota I kind of had too.

What? You rank Dempsey higher than Holyfield? Mad.
I think it's just as mad you think Dempsey's better H2H.

Lewis wouldn't have been KD by Firpo. That was the point i was making.

Lewis gassed whilst fighting at pace, he had better stamina management than Dempsey, he didn't explode when he didn't have to.

 

Broken jaw, missing teeth, hearing loss in one ear, broken ribs.... Yeah that's absolutely not a testament to Willard's toughness and Dempsey's power. Sure

Stop strawmanning. I said diminishing returns. Size isn't everything but Pac is 150 and Usyk is 210. Much different than a 210 fighting a 270

Mitchell beat the #1 and #2 contenders. Of course none of them were comparable to Lewis, there's only a handful of Heavyweights comparable to Lewis and none of them were in those eras

Fine. Fringe contender. Take it or leave it.

Fulton and Willard were great punchers but ok.

I acknowledged the possibility of this, read the damn post. I'm also inclined to believe that Tua's mind wasn't in the right place that night. He felt off.

Vitali's power is greatly overestimated due to his size. He didn't hit as hard as prime Morrison, Wlad, Bruno, etc. Also Vitali wasn't landing much clean on Lewis. It was a very sloppy brawl with both fighters having feet that moved like it was in mud

Bad example of Lewis's chin. If you want one where he actually showed a decent chin, might wanna look at the Briggs fight again

I agree, loosely. I think he'd be the hardest puncher Dempsey beat but I don't know if I'd rate him higher than Fulton. I certainly wouldn't rank him higher than Gibbons or Levinsky p4p, but at heavyweight sure

Fulton is unquestionably better than Golota

It's debatable that Holyfield accomplished more at heavyweight. I rank Holyfield higher p4p only because his accomplishments at CW but greatness at heavyweight is debatable. Dempsey I rate higher H2H ofc and I see less argument for Holyfield there

If Firpo landed the same ****** strength wild right he caught Dempsey with, Lewis would absolutely be out

I agree

 

What? It's exactly the same. Litterally not a pound difference. Both examples are ridiculous.

Size isn't everything but Lewis was 245lbs and Dempsey was 188lbs. See I can do that as well.
It's not a knock on Dempsey by the way, it's more the fact no one that size beats an ATG Lewis's size, I'd pick no one less than 200lbs to KO Wlad or beat Bowe at there best as well.

So why make the comparisons then?

I can settle with Fringe Contender, I'd have said lower top 10 contender, but I can deal with that.

Not better than Briggs and Mercer.

I agree. But Willard as a whole is very overrated. Vitali definitely hit harder, and was definitely a better fighter.

He was still landing, and Vitali is a still a big puncher, just not an ATG puncher.

I agree, Lewis made things much harder than they need to be, Vitali always used as little movement as he needed

No. No he's ****ing not. Cmon man Fulton could never beat Bowe into retirement, any Bowe. And we both know it.

Well considering they're Heavyweights I'd imagine that's how a better wins defined.

Really? Can't see that. I think Holyfield clearly accomplished more at the weight.

Again I think it's obvious but each to there own.

And likewise with the punch that Rahman hit Lewis with, which was worse.

And on that note we'll leave it there coz it's not even the same debate and we ain't gonna change are minds. So have a goodun Lach

 

DIMINISHING

RETURNS

60lbs at heavyweight matters way less than 60lbs at welterweight. a great 210lbs fighter will always beat a good 270lbs fighter. a great 150lbs fight would struggle to beat an average 210lbs fighter

Please, read what I say

I'll leave it there as well

 

Marciano is considered an ATG hwt champion because he demonstrated the qualities generally considered for an ATG hwt champion plus he was the only hwt champion to retire completely undefeated. It’s a huge deal as he was the only hwt champion ever to complete such a feat. If it were easy then there would be more, but this is not the case.

 

Had he lost to LaStarza would he be so highly rated? I think it would seriously effect his legacy

 

I know I'm not the one you asked but personally I think it would have. It's common knowledge that Marciano wasnt at his best in the LaStarza fight, he was still being developed and he was mentally shot from almost killing Vingo. But the thing about Marciano's 0 is that it showed amazing consistency and will to win, even before and after Marciano's best.

A few great heavyweights were undefeated in their prime, but there's only 1 undefeated heavyweight for their entire career. It truly is incredible, he didn't even have a trainer for the first few fights of his career! So yes I think it would've affected his legacy

 

Liston had heart once, he did continue to fight with a broken jaw before, by the time Ali came along liston completely lost interest in the sport and got frustrated because he knew he couldnt beat Ali anyways.

 

He didn’t lose to LaStarza...that’s the point. Every fighter has close fights. Marciano is the only hwt champion to retire without ever being defeated. It’s a big deal especially when you add to it his other attributes. There was no dog in Marciano. He came at his opponents with everything he had in every round no matter the circumstances. A mark of an all time great b

 

Yeah you're a stupid man who makes stupid comments, a man who cannot accept any kind of dissent or contrary opinion.
You questioned Liston's heart I pointed out he fought several rounds with a broken jaw going on to lose a split decision.
I further pointed out he came back after sustaining a broken nose to ko Williams ,ie winning in the face of adversity twice .
I never equated a split nose with a broken nose and any one with an ounce of sense would know it! .
You weaselled out of these inconvenient facts by saying ,"all broken jaws are not equal," which is one of the most fatuous and ignorant comments yet posted here. You have no idea the extent of the damage Liston sustained in the Marshall fight , you're just a Marciano ass licker who can't abide the idea that Liston is physicalyl and stylistically all wrong for 185lbs Marciano who cut from a hard stare.
Now if you want to make a point of singling me out for your asinine remarks bring it on ,and I'll show you to the forum as the ***** you are.
Your choice !

 

There was no dog in Arturo Gatti or Mickey Ward either, nor in hundreds of other fighters ,blind courage will give often you a good ride but it rarely beats superior ability ,size and power combined.

 

Cough cough Choklab

 

Probably the people who say he was a clumsy face forward fighter who was hard to miss.