I spoke with a few of you last night in regards to some videos that I ordered from B(_)ll, and have a few specific questions that are being raised as I watch this footage. I would appreciate any answers to any of these questions, even if you would only like to participate in a limited way. 1. My first, and most simple question is about Duilio Loi, who I understood to be a southpaw, but is fighting in a conventional stance in the limited footage I have here. I assume this is just an instance of him switching mid fight. Is this correct, and if so, was he a fighter that frequently switched leads when working inside? 2. The Elorde footage I have against Rivas and Kosaka is raising some questions for me in comparison to the footage I had already seen of him against Saddler (second scrap). Against Rivas and Kosaka, his affect is so relaxed as to almost seem passive at times. This is in sharp contrast to what I see in the Saddler fights, where he seems a bit more vigilant and alert, and to show more aggresion in the ring. Is this just an example of knowing that Saddler was a more dangerous opponent? Was he just playing the role of the counterpuncher moreso against Rivas than Saddler? 3. The Camacho vs Limon fight highlights the great talent and speed that Camacho had in this 21 year old version. Where do you rate Camacho's speed in relation to fighters like Taylor, RJJ, SRL, etc. 4. Willie Pep, in his fight with Cadilli (which is masterfull), shows a great jab at times, and does so with an open thumb at many points. Was this a tactic on his behalf of thumbing, or were thumbs in gloves in those days just not joined? 5. Fighting Harada is very impressive with his punch output. Where do your rate him in ability (not resume), next to a fighter like Armstrong? 6. Kid Gavilan seems to be a very versatile fighter in the ring, real class. He can stay behind the jab at range, trade, and play the role of the preasure fighter and come forward being more illusive than I first thought. What are your general impressions of him as a fighter, and as a person? I would like to learn more about him outside of the ring. 7. Finaly, Kid Chocolate strikes me as an extremely athletic fighter. Given today's training mechanisims (or if you prefer just putting the original version of him in todays ranks), where to you see him as a fighter? Thanks Fellas! :good
3. The Camacho vs Limon fight highlights the great talent and speed that Camacho had in this 21 year old version. Where do you rate Camacho's speed in relation to fighters like Taylor, RJJ, SRL, etc. At the height of his career, Camacho was as snake-fast as anyone I've ever seen. 4. Willie Pep, in his fight with Cadilli (which is masterfull), shows a great jab at times, and does so with an open thumb at many points. Was this a tactic on his behalf of thumbing, or were thumbs in gloves in those days just not joined? He did both, and took advantage of every trick he could, like Fritzie Zivic. 6. Kid Gavilan seems to be a very versatile fighter in the ring, real class. He can stay behind the jab at range, trade, and play the role of the preasure fighter and come forward being more illusive than I first thought. What are your general impressions of him as a fighter, and as a person? I would like to learn more about him outside of the ring. He could do everything you said, with a beard like concrete; but the quality that stands out most is: His indominatable will . Had he been a bigger puncher, God knows whatta monster he'dda been. Thanks Fellas! :good[/QUOTE]
Thanks John its good to hear from you. Did you ever meet Gavilan? Did he train for the most part in Miami, or did he make it up to New York?
Did meet "The Keed" in the early '50s in New York. Can't say I got to know him, though. More like a nodding acquantance at the gym, but would run into him at fights...and saw lots more of him at the 5th St. Gym in Miami.
Do you mind me asking about his personality as you percieved it, or the type of individual he was outside the ring? After this I will leave Gavilan alone.
Of the ones I feel I'm fully qualified to comment on, even though I've seen footage of guys like Chocolate, Elorde, etc, here's my take. 3. RJJ, Camacho, and Taylor are the fastest that I've seen. Taylor likely had the quickest hands, Jones the best reflexes, movement, etc, but Camacho was just overall as quick or quicker than either I think. 4. Just as John said, the gloves, as well as the mentality of many fighters in those days. If you could get by with it, why not? 5. I think he's one of the best swarmers I've seen on film, fantastic stamina and unrelenting pressure. He was faster than Armstrong for sure. In head to head terms, Armstrong always impresses me with the fact that he never tires, and always seems to pick up the pace as the fight goes on and the opponent starts to slow. He's very awkward at first, a bit odd to get into the groove of his style, but eventually you watch enough of any fighter you'll start to see their effectiveness, and Armstrong was just relentless and tireless, gaining more and more steam as the fight went on. Harada seemed to me to be more of a fast paced swarmer from the get go, a different style than Armstrong. Both extremely impressive though, two of the best I've seen on film. 6. As a fighter he's one of my favorites. He's an example I use against people who say old school fighters were primitive. He was a great athlete, had a great workrate, granite jaw, and a fantastic arsenal of punches, including all styles of bolo punches, from the left hook bolo to the uppercut, hookercut, etc. Very skilled and active on the inside and in the clinch, used his lanky arms kind of like Saddler at times. Good jab, good footwork. Was pretty much the original Leonard with his footwork and style in the ring. An excellent stylist. Would've been a great fighter in any era. As a person, I'm not fully qualified to say.
Can't talk with authority about "The Keed's" personality, acb. There was always the language barrier: I spoke no Spanish (still don't); but just from observation, he appeared accessible, out-going, always genial -- with a big smile -- and eminated high energy.
Much appreciate the props, SV. Don't claim to be a database, just been around since the Ice Age, and anything I know about fighters, matches, human-interest stuff, or behind-the-scenes stories, be glad to share. What I don't do is speculate about fantasy fights or deal with stats; I leave that to BoxRec. Also, the only guys I discuss are ones I've seen train and fight live.
That and you are, someday, going to write a book about all the fighters you've seen through the years.... and give me a free copy once it's done
The universe isn't so flawed that that would ever happen before you are able to complete it! Even if completion ends up being forty or so years down the road. :good
