Some things you might not know about Ali.

They held events with speeches about black superiority and what not. You didn't know that?

The fact that the rhetoric and support of the NOI dissipated since sociological conditions improved should tell any person who is not dumb that the heart of the movement was really about equality and independence. The movement is essentially over. Race relations improved dramatically, nobody gives a **** any more.

The difference in judging Elijah Muhammad versus thousands black americans, is that one man can be way off center. But usually very large groups balance out towards being good and smart.

Yes, you are treating white supremacy of the 20th century as ho hum. . Read all of your posts in this thread. They aim to criticize the NOI movement, with little to no acknowledgement of what black people were going through, and why their experiences may lead them to a place like the NOI. And if you do mention it, it's...ho hum.


You picked an argument with a man that said the NOI was a reaction to a powerful racist society.

 

What do you ****ing mean so what?

"Black people got lynched, murdered, tortured, mentally abused, and ridiculed."

.....But so what?

Again you don't know how to balance cause and effect. You'd rather sweep centuries of racial abuse under the rug to strengthen your little internet argument lol. Some people...

 

Until a Democrat president signed the Civil Rights Act into law, leading the most racist Democrats to leave the party and become Republicans. Reagan helped that process along too, launching his campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi (famous for an incident savage white supremacist violence against civil rights workers) and spewing his racially loaded rhetoric against "welfare queens," etc. Who do you think gets more votes and endorsements from actual white supremacists and KKK members, Trump or Clinton?

Why should African Americans think they would be better off under Republican politicians who consistently cater to bigots and oppose policies designed in part to help black people? The real dupes in American politics are the not-so-well-off white voters who get duped time and time again to blame all of their problems on minorities while giving more wealth to the rich.

 

Man we disagree on some stuff, but Mendoza takes it to a new level.

Lol if he actually thinks Obama was bad for black Americans.

 

30 verses of hate? In a book with over 3,300 verses?

Wow. Id love to see some of these verses.

Ah the old myth, the religion was spread by the sword.

If this was the case millions would be leaving Islam in droves.

But in fact, I see the opposite.

And whats Shira law? You're beginning to sound like one of those idiots from the English Defence League, with their Muslamic Ray Guns.

 

What a worthless reply. Who the **** wants to sweep centuries of racial abuse under any rug?? You're arguing with people who know far more about this stuff than you and understand it far more deeply, so you should do yourself a favor and read & think more carefully about why we're saying the things we're saying about the NOI. You seem to live in a bizarre world where anyone who disagrees with you on this stuff just doesn't get American racism or the human condition or whatever. Grow up and spare me the childish self-righteousness.

 

I think the crux to our disagreement lies here:

I believe the NOI was a REASONABLE reaction to a racist society. You can't shoot someones leg, and then patronize them about the values of forgiveness.

Similarly, you can't criticize the NOI too harshly for hate speech, when the entire movement was created as a reaction to hate! And on a much more serious level.

 

I'm pointing out the ridiculousness in your argument.

You acknowledge the horror they go through, and instead of understanding how those actions would lead to a group like the NOI, you instead say "So what?"

What do you mean by "So What?" As in like, it's not that big of a deal that millions of people suffered? Or that it is a big deal, but that millions of people suffering because of their race is not a reason to hate your abusers?

 

No, I understand exactly how human suffering leads to groups like the NOI. The difference here is that you seem to think that this somehow insulates the group and its beliefs from legitimate criticism.

 

There's a difference between balancing the good and the bad, acknowledging the good, criticizing the bad, and arriving at a balanced outlook. It's another thing to only focus on the bad.

You've summed up the NOI as a cult with a hypnotic leader that took advantage of thousands of people. But you didn't acknowledge the resources and good they provided. You painted their followers as uneducated and dispossessed. But you didn't acknowledge that these were probably mostly very good people whose government left them with little choice.

It's not that I have a problem with criticism. It's that I have a problem with inaccurate criticism that leaves integral pieces to the equation unaccounted for.

 

I think I agree that this is a big part of our disagreement. I would consider the NOI to be an understandable reaction (given the type of people who formed its membership and their predicament in life) but not a reasonable one.

You actually can "patronize" people about the values of forgiveness (worked for MLK's movement) but maybe more to the point, men like Ali didn't have to choose between meek forgiveness and joining the Nation to get involved in the struggle.

Depends what you mean by "too harshly" but imo you absolutely can and should criticize the NOI for its rhetoric and hate speech. And maybe I should have made this more clear but I completely agree that America's anti-black racism was the original sin and far, far, far more serious and worthy of condemnation than the NOI's misdeeds and misstatements.