Some thoughts about power, KO ratios, effective punching AND CHINS

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Decebal, Nov 23, 2008.


  1. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    The question of power always comes up. How hard does a guy punch? It's hard to say by looking at videos and comparing with how other fighters have done against the same opponent, but that's pretty much all we have except for KO ratios. KO ratios are very misleading, though.

    You could have a high KO ratio for any of the following reasons, not related to great power: e.g. You are very active and throw many punches and are tough, strong and hard-chinned enough to walk through whatever your opponent tries to stop you with. (e.g. Margarito, Andrade)...so you grind opponents down.

    or

    You are very fast and throw long combinations (e.g. Calzaghe)...so you encourage the referee to stop the fight on a TKO because your opponent doesn't throw anything back.

    or

    You've been fed bums to increase your KO ratio...

    or

    You are precise/dirty enough to open up cuts on your opponent
    etc.

    Some fighters' KO ratio is lower than it should be because they've been fighting high-quality opposition or simply, fighters with good chins. Others' KO ratio is lower because when they started out as pros, they were still learning many of the things that their peers who had a long amateur career already knew. This is particularly the case for Mexican fighters who start their pro careers very early and learn along the way.

    Take Margarito, for example. His KO ratio is 63%...nothing big...however, since he started fighting C level fighters in 2000, his KO ratio is 75%...pretty good, given the opposition he's fought. Similarly, Williams' KO ratio is 72% but since he stepped up against Mitchell, it is 75%...

    ...with experience, technique improves and you become more effective at punching and stopping people, even though the level of opposition improves.

    Now...back to power. Some fighters have one-punch KO power e.g Berrio. They can take a fighter with a good chin out with one punch. Others grind you down like Pavlik, for example. Pavlik doesn't have the one-punch power Berrio has, p4p, but his KO ratio is about the same. He is as effective at stopping people as Berrio, even though he doesn't rely on one punch to do the job.

    Sometimes we're becoming confused when we see that a fighter whose power we considered very good didn't end up stopping an opponent who we thought he should have stopped. But here's the thing: just because you have power doesn't mean that you will plant your feet and bang against every opponent. In some cases you will not have the time or opportunity, given the style of your opponent. Sometimes you are better off pulling your punches and keeping your balance rather than putting everything you've got on your punches and risking getting out of position/becoming unbalanced.

    Then, there's further confusion when we see a fighter punching very effectively despite not having much power...he could do it because he's very fast or because he's not telegraphing his punches. A punch you don't expect will be more effective than a harder one you do expect. Precision, timing, speed, angles, feints...all these things could be more important in setting up a more effective punch than brute power. Reckless figthers who are prepared to take a lot of punishment to surprise you and hit you with all they have will always be pretty effective, even if their power isn't great in an absolute sense.

    Then, there's level of activity...punching hard very often will probably hurt your opponent more than punching a bit harder but less often...

    ...plenty of other things to consider, but these are the things that came to mind, right now...

    ...all of this is just obvious stuff...but it's still easy to get confused...:(

    Any other examples?

    Any other thoughts/views?

    :good
     
  2. CLUBBER

    CLUBBER C.R.A.B. BOXING Full Member

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    Good article dude you know the facts!
     
  3. catasyou

    catasyou Lucian Bute Full Member

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    There was one thread about this a while ago,in essence the KO retios don't show the fighter's fighting power.
     
  4. TFFP

    TFFP Guest

    Good points.

    Many people don't seem to understand the subtleties behind punching power, and the factors involved in scoring a KO or having a high KO ratio.
     
  5. PugilisticPower

    PugilisticPower The Blonde Batman Full Member

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    Usually the higher % of lower class opponents you fight, the higher % of KO's you have.

    I think you've got to look at guys who are getting KO's in the big leagues like RJJ Jr used too, like Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis used too, like Wlad and Vitali do.

    They're all powerful for their weight, with sharp punches. In the case of Lennox and Wlad, it's more grind you down but the other 3 will spark you out
     
  6. shavers

    shavers Well-Known Member Full Member

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    You have to switch vitali in for wlad. wlad is the harder puncher of the two. Vitali is a volumepuncher who wears you out.

    OHH. and ask golota, grant, botha,briggs and ruddock if lennox cant take you out with one shot.
     
  7. Axe

    Axe Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Decebal, that was a good read.

    I think the "being fed bums" point is most applicable to boxers in the present day. :good
     
  8. Carlos Primera

    Carlos Primera Boxing Addict Full Member

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    good thread man. truly gauging a fighters power is a combination of different factors.
     
  9. konaman

    konaman Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Cool thread i was thinking about making a thread on this the other week. KO % essentially tells us nothing unless its outstandingly high, then you can generally conclude that the fighter does in fact have good power.

    Video footage is really the only way we can gauge a fighters power. Good call on Margo and Pavlik, i remember people acted like i was crazy when i claimed Pavlik's power was overrated before the Hopkins fight. He didn't have huge one punch power (like an Abraham) it was his work rate and ability to take one to give one that allowed him to really beat his opponents up badly, same with Margo.

    There are a few main attributes to a knockout in a fight:

    1. Power, simply how hard the fighter hits his opponent

    2. The fighters ability to land punches, basically everything that makes a boxer good, handspeed, timing, workrate, footwork, ring IQ. Simply the ability to land clean on the opponent, and how regularly they can do it. So for an example, a fighter with a very high work rate who lands a lot and scores a lot of knockouts may not actually have that much power.

    3. Pretty much the opposite of 2, the quality of the guy being knocked out. How good is his chin? How good is his footwork? His defense? If he is hit easily and has a weak chin, a stoppage might not say a lot about his opponents power. If he is very easily hit, and it takes his opponent 12 rounds to stop him, on accumulation, that doesn't give the power rating a very good wrap.

    Punching power is so hard to gauge because some fighters have pretty bad overall punching ability, but with good strength. Other fights have awesome punching ability but probably don't put as much force on it. I think there are so many different factors to punching technique and power that it makes it almost impossible to accurately gauge "power" outside of having some sort of machine directly measure the impact.

    Some guys have great physical strength but as soon as they get tired they can't throw very well and lack technique (Peter). Some guys have very stiff punches and really push them into their opponents at times (Wlad's jab). Other guys like Haye aren't quite as big but really load up from range. Some guys punch through their opponents from close, these ones rip the heads of their opponents back in an unnatural fashion - see Hearns ripping the massive shot into Duran from close range and punching right through him, high velocity punch with perfect technique and timing.
     
  10. Hagler/Pryor

    Hagler/Pryor Member Full Member

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    Unfortunately, not even video evidence will tell you much about a fighter's power. What it will tell you is how committed and how effective a certain punch was, against a certain opponent, in the given instance. Some puncher's are deceptively powerful, even if they don't commit to their punches and even if their punches don't look powerful.

    Ultimately, the only way to be certain about the power a certain fighter's punches is to ask his opponents. I remember reading a thread in the British forum a while ago; Tony Dodson was saying his sparring partner Robin Reid punched considerably harder than the person who had him out in three rounds, Carl Froch. Now, you wouldn't guess that by watching film, would you? Nor would you guess that Reid was a powerful puncher by looking at his stoppage percentage. Still, apparently he punches harder than Froch.
     
  11. elgoadie

    elgoadie Active Member Full Member

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    Another way to gauge pure raw punching power is to simply use technology for an exact measurement... :D
     
  12. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    True...but it would be pretty pointless. In the end, power doesn't matter much; effectiveness of punching is the only thing that matters.:good
     
  13. Marnoff

    Marnoff Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, certainly it is a multifaceted topic. Good read.
     
  14. MancMexican

    MancMexican Blood & Guts Forever Full Member

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    I did a thread on this a little ago but you've covered things with a different and interesting slant. People get seduced by the numbers too much in boxing. Joe public thinks ko percentage is in direct proportion to power but its not as simple as that. Nice read.
     
  15. Silver

    Silver The Champ is Here Full Member

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    another thing you guys have to take into account is finishing. some fighters punch hard but are poor finishers and/or have poor stamina