Some thoughts about power, KO ratios, effective punching AND CHINS

Decebal · Nov 24, 2008

Silver said:

another thing you guys have to take into account is finishing. some fighters punch hard but are poor finishers and/or have poor stamina
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Indeed.

jamel · Nov 24, 2008

konaman said:

Cool thread i was thinking about making a thread on this the other week. KO % essentially tells us nothing unless its outstandingly high, then you can generally conclude that the fighter does in fact have good power.

Video footage is really the only way we can gauge a fighters power. Good call on Margo and Pavlik, i remember people acted like i was crazy when i claimed Pavlik's power was overrated before the Hopkins fight. He didn't have huge one punch power (like an Abraham) it was his work rate and ability to take one to give one that allowed him to really beat his opponents up badly, same with Margo.

There are a few main attributes to a knockout in a fight:

1. Power, simply how hard the fighter hits his opponent

2. The fighters ability to land punches, basically everything that makes a boxer good, handspeed, timing, workrate, footwork, ring IQ. Simply the ability to land clean on the opponent, and how regularly they can do it. So for an example, a fighter with a very high work rate who lands a lot and scores a lot of knockouts may not actually have that much power.

3. Pretty much the opposite of 2, the quality of the guy being knocked out. How good is his chin? How good is his footwork? His defense? If he is hit easily and has a weak chin, a stoppage might not say a lot about his opponents power. If he is very easily hit, and it takes his opponent 12 rounds to stop him, on accumulation, that doesn't give the power rating a very good wrap.

Punching power is so hard to gauge because some fighters have pretty bad overall punching ability, but with good strength. Other fights have awesome punching ability but probably don't put as much force on it. I think there are so many different factors to punching technique and power that it makes it almost impossible to accurately gauge "power" outside of having some sort of machine directly measure the impact.

Some guys have great physical strength but as soon as they get tired they can't throw very well and lack technique (Peter). Some guys have very stiff punches and really push them into their opponents at times (Wlad's jab). Other guys like Haye aren't quite as big but really load up from range. Some guys punch through their opponents from close, these ones rip the heads of their opponents back in an unnatural fashion - see Hearns ripping the massive shot into Duran from close range and punching right through him, high velocity punch with perfect technique and timing.
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To determine who has true power best check out the opponents and also their records too and who they have fought and previously been KO'd by etc. Even a 100% KO ratio means nothing if you have fought 25 guys who have a lopsided losing record and have been KO'd in all of their losses by less than average fighters.

eze · Nov 24, 2008

Someone tried to say that Margo has a better KO ratio than Floyd...

Lmao..

Rock0052 · Nov 24, 2008

Decebal said:

The question of power always comes up. How hard does a guy punch? It's hard to say by looking at videos and comparing with how other fighters have done against the same opponent, but that's pretty much all we have except for KO ratios. KO ratios are very misleading, though.

You could have a high KO ratio for any of the following reasons, not related to great power: e.g. You are very active and throw many punches and are tough, strong and hard-chinned enough to walk through whatever your opponent tries to stop you with. (e.g. Margarito, Andrade)...so you grind opponents down.

or

You are very fast and throw long combinations (e.g. Calzaghe)...so you encourage the referee to stop the fight on a TKO because your opponent doesn't throw anything back.

or

You've been fed bums to increase your KO ratio...

or

You are precise/dirty enough to open up cuts on your opponent
etc.

Some fighters' KO ratio is lower than it should be because they've been fighting high-quality opposition or simply, fighters with good chins. Others' KO ratio is lower because when they started out as pros, they were still learning many of the things that their peers who had a long amateur career already knew. This is particularly the case for Mexican fighters who start their pro careers very early and learn along the way.

Take Margarito, for example. His KO ratio is 63%...nothing big...however, since he started fighting C level fighters in 2000, his KO ratio is 75%...pretty good, given the opposition he's fought. Similarly, Williams' KO ratio is 72% but since he stepped up against Mitchell, it is 75%...

...with experience, technique improves and you become more effective at punching and stopping people, even though the level of opposition improves.

Now...back to power. Some fighters have one-punch KO power e.g Berrio. They can take a fighter with a good chin out with one punch. Others grind you down like Pavlik, for example. Pavlik doesn't have the one-punch power Berrio has, p4p, but his KO ratio is about the same. He is as effective at stopping people as Berrio, even though he doesn't rely on one punch to do the job.

Sometimes we're becoming confused when we see that a fighter whose power we considered very good didn't end up stopping an opponent who we thought he should have stopped. But here's the thing: just because you have power doesn't mean that you will plant your feet and bang against every opponent. In some cases you will not have the time or opportunity, given the style of your opponent. Sometimes you are better off pulling your punches and keeping your balance rather than putting everything you've got on your punches and risking getting out of position/becoming unbalanced.

Then, there's further confusion when we see a fighter punching very effectively despite not having much power...he could do it because he's very fast or because he's not telegraphing his punches. A punch you don't expect will be more effective than a harder one you do expect. Precision, timing, speed, angles, feints...all these things could be more important in setting up a more effective punch than brute power. Reckless figthers who are prepared to take a lot of punishment to surprise you and hit you with all they have will always be pretty effective, even if their power isn't great in an absolute sense.

Then, there's level of activity...punching hard very often will probably hurt your opponent more than punching a bit harder but less often...

...plenty of other things to consider, but these are the things that came to mind, right now...

...all of this is just obvious stuff...but it's still easy to get confused...

Any other examples?

Any other thoughts/views?

:good
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Great stuff Decebal, I don't have anything more in depth to add to it, but here's an example:

If asked who hits harder between Hasim Rahman and David Tua, my choice would always be Tua who I believe was one of the hardest one punch hitters in history. Yet, in fighting a common opponent in Lennox Lewis, one guy scores a one punch knockout and the other gets outlasted for a decision without really threatening for the KO- and the man who scored the KO wasn't the one who'd KO'd former or future champions like Moorer and Ruiz in record time. It was the guy who couldn't stop Oleg Maskaev in 24 rounds despite landing flush on a fighter whose shown a propensity for getting stopped himself in Maskaev. That little circle shows me 2 things- one, that one punch power is only as good as your ability to connect with it, and most fighters even at a championship level can get knocked out with the right shot. Also, I think it shows that on some days, even a fighter's chin can react differently to the same big shots.

Another comparison would be Sven Ottke vs Kessler in punching power, using Anthony Mundine as the litmus test. Kessler, with no doubt in my mind, hits harder than Ottke...yet Mundine can take 12 rounds of punishment from Mikkel yet get iced cold by Ottke.

Decebal · Nov 24, 2008

Rock0052 said:

Great stuff Decebal, I don't have anything more in depth to add to it, but here's an example:

If asked who hits harder between Hasim Rahman and David Tua, my choice would always be Tua who I believe was one of the hardest one punch hitters in history. Yet, in fighting a common opponent in Lennox Lewis, one guy scores a one punch knockout and the other gets outlasted for a decision without really threatening for the KO- and the man who scored the KO wasn't the one who'd KO'd former or future champions like Moorer and Ruiz in record time. It was the guy who couldn't stop Oleg Maskaev in 24 rounds despite landing flush on a fighter whose shown a propensity for getting stopped himself in Maskaev. That little circle shows me 2 things- one, that one punch power is only as good as your ability to connect with it, and most fighters even at a championship level can get knocked out with the right shot. Also, I think it shows that on some days, even a fighter's chin can react differently to the same big shots.

Another comparison would be Sven Ottke vs Kessler in punching power, using Anthony Mundine as the litmus test. Kessler, with no doubt in my mind, hits harder than Ottke...yet Mundine can take 12 rounds of punishment from Mikkel yet get iced cold by Ottke.
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Indeed...very good points.:good

Decebal · Nov 28, 2008

Here's a thought about chins:

Many posters for some reason assume there are two types of chin: iron and china. WRONG! There's a continuum from china to iron. And here's the thing:

Even a fighter with a china chin will be able to take some punches, and from time to time, he will even be able to take a good punch!

Similarly, even a fighter with an iron chin will from time to time be knocked down by a very good punch.

Some people also think that unless you have an iron chin, you will eventually be knocked out by a puncher. WRONG! It doesn't have to be a puncher! It can be someone who grinds you down with less power. On the other hand, you could go 12 with a one-punch KO power puncher!

There are fighters who can take a very hard punch as a one-off who cannot take a lot of normal punches. On the other hand, there are fighters who can take a lot of normal punches but cannot take a very hard punch! Chins are as different as people.

Another misconception is that you need an iron chin to succeed in boxing. Well, that's only true if you have no defence, if you're slow, if you don't have much power and if you don't have much in terms of boxing skills...pretty much all worldclass fighters B level or better don't need a chin that's better than very good (B+) to succeed at the highest level. After all, if you rely too much on your chin to keep you in the fight, it means you aren't a very effective boxer...doesn't it?

Enough worthless words of wisdom from yours truly...for now.

the_brigand · Nov 28, 2008

McCline KD Peter 3 times.... Klitschko's 0.

figure that one out.

Decebal · Nov 28, 2008

the_brigand said:

McCline KD Peter 3 times.... Klitschko's 0.

figure that one out.
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Ay...:good

Beeston Brawler · Nov 28, 2008

Hagler/Pryor said:

Unfortunately, not even video evidence will tell you much about a fighter's power. What it will tell you is how committed and how effective a certain punch was, against a certain opponent, in the given instance. Some puncher's are deceptively powerful, even if they don't commit to their punches and even if their punches don't look powerful.

Ultimately, the only way to be certain about the power a certain fighter's punches is to ask his opponents. I remember reading a thread in the British forum a while ago; Tony Dodson was saying his sparring partner Robin Reid punched considerably harder than the person who had him out in three rounds, Carl Froch. Now, you wouldn't guess that by watching film, would you? Nor would you guess that Reid was a powerful puncher by looking at his stoppage percentage. Still, apparently he punches harder than Froch.
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Tony Dodson and Carl Froch get on like Hitler and Churchill, Roach and DLH - seriously they HATE each other.

Reid could bang, big time - even in his last fight with Froch the power was still there. He used to beat Ricky Hatton to death in sparring.

Beeston Brawler · Nov 28, 2008

Good point........

He used to give Carl Thompson a bit of stick as well - SMW's shouldn't be getting the better of CW's in sparring.

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Some thoughts about power, KO ratios, effective punching AND CHINS

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Some thoughts about power, KO ratios, effective punching AND CHINS

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