I suppose we shouldn't expect a Hagler fan to really understand or appreciate the disadvantages of moving beyond your natural weight class and fighting naturally bigger, stronger fighters. If he wasn't so utterly content with relying upon fighters from lower weight classes to move up and make him money and actually dared step out of his comfort zone himself and fought someone like Qawi, he'd have made Benitez's performance look respectable by comparison. Nope, just two 100% factual, irrefutable points. Not accepting them may make it easier for you to cope with seeing your idol get taken to school by a washed up, inactive welterweight, but it doesn't fit reality, I'm afraid.
it dont matter how strongly you state it, if you speak in absolutes,, repeating rumours you heard in the echo chamber still dont make it fact that's the problem with poorly educated personal trainers, they dont know the difference between fact and opinion he wouldnt have been cleared if he had one eye functioning see? I just disspelled your rumour! :happy well, that was easy. the rest of your post, that was bull**** too you see son, Leonard's eye wasnt the problem; it was his heart why do I say this? becuz of the way he announced his comeback after seeing Duran extend Hags to 15. December 1983, leonard announces comeback you see, THOSE are the facts! :deal now what's the reason for him quitting? was his eye giving him problems in the Howard fight? Did he say he was having problems seeing Howard? No, I believe his reason was "it wasn't there" but he was just being vague which was intentional becuz the real reason was his tuneup didnt go as smoothly as planned see? it was his HEART, not his eye now I appreciate an effort made by a man moving up in weight to challenge bigger stronger men, but not when they pick on the biggest sap they can find holding a title and then demand that he melt all the way down to the lower limit where's the courage in that? why is it that so many fighters must compromise themselves physically, just to meet Sugar Ray? Dont recall the first Sugar Ray telling Maxim to melt down for him. Floyd Jr doesnt require such compromises and besides, what good does climbing in weight when he cant handle men who are closer to his own weight and size? people like Norris? speaking of idols that were taken to school but smaller fighters, did you ever catch that fight between a washed up Camacho, a natural 130 pounder and the knockout he induced on the much bigger stronger Leonard? it was a style that Leonard wasnt accustomed to and fell apart like a cheap deck of cards I always said that Hector even though dwarfed in size physically, had the much bigger heart you should watch it, study it. Then can finally see how real fighting is done
why would he ttake a fight he didnt need if he was weight drained? That doesnt even make sense! If you're going to make a claim you have to PROVE it true
May I say: Hearns did not gas; he was a tremendous fighter that night, broken down by Leonard over 14 rounds. Recently, this forum was hard-pressed to come up with names of welterweights from any era that could beat the Hit Man. In their epic meeting, Leonard came back several times against such a fighter and stopped him. The first Leonard-Durán clash is the only truly meaningful one; it showcases Durán's all-time, pound-for-pound greatness. But give Leonard credit for jumping back in the ring and deploying the skills to make such a fighter quit. Marvin Hagler was considered unbeatable at middleweight. He said it best (prior to the Leonard fight), "There's no one else out there for me." Leonard's notion of opportunism at Hagler's natural slight decline was considered long-shot wishful thinking. No blown-up, aging, inactive welterweight such as Leonard could rightly be considered as anything other than a victim in going up to middleweight and challenging Hagler. Yet, Leonard stuck to his plan and legitimately beat such an awesome champion. Say what you will about the Lalonde affair, but Lalonde was a big man who came to fight, and Leonard got off the canvas to knock him out. Leonard was blown out by Norris and Camacho, not because of ring wear or the superiority of his opponents; he was just too old. The bouts mean as much as Louis' loss to Marciano or Roy Jones' late-career defeats. Yes, Leonard picked his spots, but in the face of all-time great opposition, he made it happen. The Benitez win alone placed young Leonard on the threshold of greatness. He had soundly beaten a very good champion. He lost gallantly to an arguably top-ten, all-time pound-for-pound great, and immediately reversed the result. Over his retirements and comebacks, he kept raising the bar and flying over it. Say what you will about him as a person, in the ring Ray Leonard was a fantastic fighter. By the time he beat Hagler, he had reached the level of true all-time greatness--in my opinion within the top 30 or 40.
how does make the claim that he jumped up in weight out of his natural weight class, then again make another jump 7 pounds above the same weight class for Norris, to become weight drained??? you cant use that argument. just plain dumb like all his fans Now had Leonard dropped down in weight for another fighter the way Lalonde did for him, only then would I go along with it
now his fans are trying to make something out of Lalonde why? becuz there's really nothing else out there so they embellish with whatever was available. if you dont have a Curry or Pryor, you make do with what you have as for this argument "he was just too old" for Norris, I can easily dispell that with Floyd Jr is 38 and he's still winning. Walcott, & Moore were late 30s. Hopkins. Tiger. Foreman Monzon? what's more. they had many more fights and still went strong. I never saw them get blown out the way leonard did so maybe he was old in the Camacho fight but so was Camacho you see, so it evens out in fact, Hector was much the smaller man but had more inside where it counts. After a few whacks to the head you could see it in Leonard's eyes; he didnt want it anymore Hearns? there's no denying its a good win but to say that no one else would stand a chance against a stick thin 145 pound welter who was all rib and no muscle and 3 def against questionable opposition? that's requires embellishment I can name plenty I think would stand more than a chance - Napoles, Basilio, Demarco, Honeyghan, Robinson along with some of Robinson's stronger opposition Hearns at 154, that's another matter Hagler? Hate to break this to you but Hagler had been catching flack for his deteriorating condition since early 1984, that he wasnt what he was previous to, that he is showing strong signs of vulnerability, getting easy to hit, three yrs before the leonard fight who was it causing him all this grief? the press so if the press keeps needling him throughout the year saying that he's suscetible to upsets, why are you telling me that three years that Hagler is ona slight decline? those are your words - "slight decline" when SHOT is much more accurate. KO magazine which covered the fight said Hagler's reflexes were shot and his legs looked dead then there's the famous quote by leonard passed on by Tim Ryan in round six "Leonard said Hagler had lost alot of speed and said he was counting on the slowness of Hagler" all of which harpoons your claim like I said people, if you're going to make a claim you have to back it up the way I did
While meanwhile, back at the ranch, his detractors are trying to make nothing out of Hagler (which is actually a much more difficult challenge). So it goes.
When have I ever said Hagler was nothing? I said Hagler was thru as a fighter by the time Ray "gained interest" after five years of giving him the brush off (see baltimore civic center November 1982) what proof do I have? let's see. it was his last fight he wa stripped of 2/3 of his undisputed title (WBC only). why would he care at this point? KO magazine after having seen Hagler lose said he had no future becuz he had no reflexes and his legs looked shot Leonard said before the fight that Hagler had lost a lot of speed which is what he was counting on you can add Gil Clancy to that list of those who noticed Vito Antuofuermo said the week before on an ESPN interview that any of Hagler's previous challengers could now take take him had they been fortunate enough to face the cheapened version of 1987. and then there's the countless articles throughout 1984 harping on Hagler's scaled down attributes, not to mention Leonard to Roldan "thanks for softening him up for me buddy" it's like I said, my proof far outweighs yours and people like you you got proof he wasn't?
here's another classic you can add: "I saw Hagler doing a dance after the fight. That means he knew he lost" Like I said, can u prove it? If not then SHADDUP!
What on earth is your basis for thinking you know enough about me to make any claim about "people like [me]"?
So now you are going to claim that the shorter height, shorter reached Norris, who had NEVER fought at Middle, never mind Super Middle, was the BIGGER guy in the Leonard fight? Even better you are claiming that Leonard who hadn't been in a ring for 14 months was weight drained. As far as FANBOYS go, you are without a doubt in the PREMIER league. ENJOY.
So, your "proof" that he was "shot" (the claim I'm taking exception to) is that one guy who wrote an article for a magazine said so? As evidence that he wasn't shot, I'd suggest KO magazine's April 1986 rating of him as the #2 pound-for-pound fighter in the world, only just having lost the top spot because of Donald Curry's destruction of Milton McCrory. In between the #2 ranking and the Leonard fight, he only had one fight - a knockout of undefeated John Mugabi, the #1 contender per all 3 world sanctioning bodies. At the time of the stoppage, Hagler led by three points on two cards, and it would have been four but for a point deduction. Mugabi was 25-0, all by knockout, at the time, and with the exception of a freak stoppage based on a thumbed eye (in a fight Mugabi was leading on points), he would go on to knock out his next 11 opponents over a two-year span. So yeah, I think there's a little evidence to suggest that Hagler wasn't "shot."
