Someone school me on Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey

Look johnson's level of opposition between 1903 and 1911. Draw up a top ten of that timeframe and see if you can spot the common denominator.

Dempsey isn't in my top ten any more. Can't find anything to put him above say wlad, rocky, liston, holyfield.

 

I'm not too familiar with Johnson. Dempsey, I have read about him a bit. It was considered, at the time, that he had beaten just about everybody by the time he won the title. He took a lot of fights in his early days on short notice and often and to undergo some extreme situations in getting there to fight. There was one fight- a draw in Goldfield Nevada- that involved him walking 20 miles across the desert to get to the fight. Also, he was self taught, learning from watching and reading during most of his early career, and Salt Lake City has never been a real boxing hotbed.

 

You need to consider the depth of johnson's resume during his prime.

His best years were probably from 03-11. If you look at a top ten of that timeframe he's pretty much beaten everyone in it.

 

Especially when you consider he deserved to beat hart and his dq loss to jeannette was really a ko victory.

He's arguably beaten everyone you'd put in a top ten from 03 to 11 and you undersell the victory over jeffries.

It was the original fight of the century and at the time it sealed his legacy which is why he became quite **** afterwards; he'd completely cleaned out his era.

 

You have to consider men were generally smaller in this time, maybe boxing wasn't as developed and maybe didn't have the depth

But on your points:

1. See points above, Langford was still 1 of the best at this stage, it isn't for most people his best win

2. Jeanette probably had allot more than 10 fights, he talks about having allot more fights with Johnson than are actually on record (or was that McVey?). Either way boxrec doesn't record everything and Jeanette beat some of the best HWs of the period

3. See above

Dempsey:

1. Best wins are probably Gibbons, Sharkey, Miske, Firpo, Fulton and Willard

2. Yes he did

Liston and Wills could arguably be above both, I won't attempt to rank them though

 

This may not make much sense, but I also found it problematic ranking Dempsey as an ATG, until I started thinking about him more in p4p terms than comparing him to other heavies.

There wasn't a huge size difference between Dempsey and the likes of Gibbons and Carpentier, and he beat both handily. Pre-illness Miske was an excellent fighter, and Dempsey destroyed much larger foes like Willard, Fulton and Firpo.

There isn't great depth to his record, but he clearly stood out as a phenom amongst his peers, and is one of the few fighters from the era who stands the test of time on film.

 

The way I understand it, Johnson beat everyone available to him.

He beat all the top black contenders on his way up, and all the white contenders after he beat Jeffries.

Langford was a very very good win, even of Sam hasn't fully developed into a heavy then. That said, even Jack hadn't fully developed into his prime at the time. Jeanette and McVey's Boxrec record doesn't do them justice. Jeffries, Ketchell, Fireman Jim, Burns etc. these are a who's who of the time

 

Yeah dempsey was so dominant from 18-23 it was accepted that he'd have beaten the best black contenders as well.

It's complete revisionism by us as critics but it's fair also imo.

His resume doesn't stack up but his achievements and skillset do stack up.

He doesn't break my top ten because many people have come since his day and he's naturally dropped down as people surpassed him.

Cutting off boxing history at his retirement to hollywood and i'd have him ranked number 2.

As it is he's more like number 15 now. Louis, ali, larry, foreman, frazier, lewis, tyson and holyfield have surpassed him. He's in the same tier as rocky, wlad, walcott and liston.

 

Jeannette last fought Johnson on the 26th of November 1906,we do not have his poundage, but 4.5 months later he scaled 185lbs for a fight with Mcvey ,Jeannete was 27 years old . .McVey scaled 207lbs for his last fight with Johnson, Jack scaled 190lbs, it is likely McVey was the heavier man in all 3 of their fights. Aside from Langford, the only one of those you mentioned ,who we know was under 170lbs was O Brien, Langford undoubtedly improved ,but so did Johnson , both added 20lbs to their frames for example.
Langford had extensive ring experience when they met,[ over 50 fights], certainly more than Johnson.Jeannette ,McVey, Langford were not prime when they fought Johnson ,but was Jack?

 

I posted a newspaper report that stated Johnson had 25 pounds on Jeanette and was taller, which indicates Jeanette was in the 160-170 pound range. In addition, Jeanette who had a losing record when he first meet Johnson, and was close to our just above .500 when they last fought said he was in the 160's when he last fought Johnson.


Still the inexperiences super middle had his share of moments vs. a much more experienced and bigger Johnson. Let's the excuses begin