Someone school me on Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey

The point comes when the man is too big to be effective inside. Bowe consistently proved this to not be the case. There are better guys on the inside who i'd favour to beat bowe such as louis, liston, frazier and tyson but all these guys have proven to be genuine hw's and the extra twenty pounds makes a difference imo.

Perhaps we disagree not on how good each man is, but on the power of dempsey because I put it below each of those 4 I mentioned.

Dempsey would not force wlad or lewis into a mistake. He'd be battered by the jab and be clinched if he got within spittin distance. No, I won't entertain any possibility of a jack victory here.

Byrd finished as a lhw but he was clearly dead at the weight. He proved his hw credentials against tua, holyfield and vitali.

I'm sorry, jack's destructions of fulton, willard and firpo are legendary. I'm sure he'd be a force anytime up until the 90's. Giving away 20+ is bad enough. Already at a disadvantage which hopefully his speed and power cancel out against most contenders in history.

But making that disadvantage 50+ pounds is suicide and genuinely would ensure the bout never got sanctioned in reality.

The last time any shw fought a sub hw was vitali against hide. Hide had his success before getting brutalised.

We're not talking punching bags here. We're talking genuine great heavyweights who are fit at 250 pounds.

 

Dempsey falls at 58 seconds of the video. Certainly not his best performance, but a great video example to exhibit your point about his flaws.

He should've never had such trouble with Firpo. Maybe he's too past his prime and skills too unrefined at this stage to properly evaluate him.

 

The sound of Dempsey's punches, though. :!:

As for the thread. Both have highly critical and fairly poor title runs. Dempsey's run is a bit more consistent in names, but Johnson is the more appealing names in Ketchel and Jeffries. I prefer Johnson's pre title run regardless of the inexperience in Langford, McVea, and Jeannete. At the end of the day he beat them and they turned out to be great fighters and probably were good fighters in the context regardless. So I rank Johnson ahead, and have him in my top 10 as opposed to Dempsey. Don't particularly agree with lumping Johnson and Dempsey in the same context as guys that missed the best and were too inactive. Johnson has better names and less downfalls like Flynn and Meehan. Being 37 and losing to Williard is not inexcusable either.

 

Louis is maybe the smallest man I would still class as a HW H2H great. he often scaled between 195 and 205. It isn't a huge stretch to imagine him with an extra 5-10 pounds of muscle. He was 6'2 and was a man who would still be a HW today. He is maybe the best HW I have ever seen on film for a complete package.

Even in the world of the super heavy, I could imagine him stalking and ending the fight with one shot.

Jack Dempsey was rarely above 190. So even with the smallest of the HW's he's still giving away a stone in weight, this against a guy who can match him skillwise also.

Other guys known as small HW's: Byrd, Johnson, Holyfield, Frazier they all hit round about the 15 stone mark during their career so the difference percentage wise between them and a legit shw isn't a huge deal. we're talking about 10% difference here.

Dempsey would be smaller than some LHW's fighting today. He'd be smaller than most CW's and he'd certainly be a laughing stock at the weigh in against Wlad.

This isn't just Dempsey: Walcott, Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Patterson, Charles, Marciano, Moore all these guys would be in a mismatch against a super heavy.

I'm not saying their mismatches against any HW but against a 6'5 235 lean HW with great fighting ability, they're in above their head in a fight they wouldn't be expected to be competitive in.

It's a reality of the sport.

They'd all be CW's today. Matches like Dempsey v Wlad are genuinely laughable. It isn't a reflection on the greatness of jack, because his place in set ijn stone (even if many have surpassed him since) but he isn't a h2h force when you're discussing super heavyweight opposition of a similar calibre.

Vitali crushed hide but was clowned by byrd so make of that what you will (bear in mind even byrd has 20+ pounds on dempsey). If any SHW would fall to jack it would be vitali who's speed and infighting ability leave a lot to be desired.

 

Luf with all due respect..NONSENSE...Dempsey from the waist up was bigger than Joe Louis. Dempsey murdered the biggest men he fought. You are obsessed with weight today. Your minds are closed to the past so it is
no use for me to argue the point that POWER + SPEED equal enough generation for Dempsey or Louis to ko anyone they hit solidly...Dempsey
according to eyewitnesses flattened,big Fred Futon with two devastating
punches...He kod big strong Carl Morris in the first round. He was the first man to drop Jess Willard with ONE tremendous left hook. He flattened
crude but powerful Luis Angel Firpo with 2 of the most powerful and short
lefthook and right cross's ever seen in the second rd. Do you honestly think that the above names were not as rugged as your modern goliath's ?
Better maybe, but not any BRAVER AND TOUGHER than the fighters Dempsey obliterated. A Louis or a Dempsey were not your run of the mill
SHWs. They both had the rare combination of explosive punches,combined with great handspeed...Don't sell them short...
P.S. Did Bowe, or Lewis have all their extra weights in their jaws...Heck no!
Willard went, Abe Simon went, Buddy Baer went, Firpo went,and so would your big boys go if a Dempsey or Joe Louis tagged them...Cheers...

 

Tell 'em Burt! Time machine a prime Louis and Dempsey into the HW scene today and watch the sparks fly! Dempsey's speed and power would have the big boys thinking about taking up pro wrestling...Likewise Louis. Joe and Jack would be licking thier chops.

 

I believe you'll find I still classed louis as a great h2h force.

It's like when people make these fantasy fights between greb and whoever. Your first response is always "why are we pitting greb against heavier opposition it's unfair" well that's what it's like with dempsey against a shw.

Remember burt, if dempsey were alive today he'd most likely be a lhw who finished his career at cw. He wouldn't be a hw and he wouldn't be fighting wlad klitschko.

 

Yeah Ali is **** because he had Parkinson's Disease. It negates all his achievements.

 

luf,why would you bring Greb a MW into this equation ? you know there are weight limits. I have said this before. There is a law of diminishing returns for heavyweights only. What they gain in BULK, they lose in AGILITY and HANDSPEED. There were giants in days past who were naturally as heavy as today's goliath's, who were creamed by much smaller men, such as Fitz, Dillon, Langford, dare I say Dempsey, and my man Joe Louis. I know you have a closed agenda driven mind luf [with due respect]
but I repeat Dempsey's tremendous speed and inner toughness [PRE TUNNEY] obliterated a Morris, Fulton,Willard, Firpo who were as strong as
todays mastodons. AND JUST AS TOUGH in a less PAMPERED age. If
necessasary Dempsey TODAY could be fighting at 220 pounds because of his large upper frame and long arms...Would he have been better?HELL NO.
Just bigger...Joe Louis annihilated big Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera, Paolino Uzcudun ,who was built like an ox, Arturo Godoy,as tough as George Chuvalo...At 200 pounds were he to have hit [and he would]
your Riddick Bowe's, Lennox Lewis coterie of big boys, rest assured they
would be in slumberland...I know you will say Bowe, Lewis, were better fighters than the above Dempsey and Louis's victims...Maybe they were...
But they were not ANY TOUGHER...If only size determined heavyweight ability why isn't there basketball giants, and football strong men boxing champs repeatedly today ? Answer boxing is q unique profession that combines strength,speed, dexterity and innate toughness. And Dempsey and Louis had those in abundance....
P.S. When Dempsey was training in his prime he repeatedly dropped his sparring partner big George Godfrey in training sessions...Godfrey was HUGE.. Of course your big boys hit very hard...Sure did. But in boxing it's
"who gets there fustess with the mostess ",as a famous Civil War General said. And in my opinion it would be Dempsey and Louis...Cheers...

 

I thought the following was an interesting observation made about weight a long time ago by Billy Madden, one time manager of heavyweight John L. Sullivan and included it in my book about Billy Miske:

"(Madden) piped in as well voicing his opinion Billy was big enough to whip any professional in the world.

That youngster is one of the best fighters I ever saw and I've seen the best in the game for the last forty-five years, and as for size and weight, Miske is big enough for all purposes. It isn't necessary for a man to weigh more than 175 or 180 pounds in order to whip the best man in the world. These giants like Willard, Fulton and Carl Morris are too big to be first class fighters. Men of that size are naturally slow and get lost against the fast, quick-hitting men of normal size. Miske is very fast and shifty and he delivers his blows with both hands in rapid-fire fashion. He is an ideally built fightiing man and I might say the best I've ever seen.

Madden went on to say that he'd wager on Miske against Willard with all the confidence in the world. "John L. Sullivan, when he was at his best, weighed about 180 pounds. Jim Corbett, when he beat Sullivan at New Orleans weighed exactly 178," said Madden, "and Jack Johnson never was as formidable as when he weighed 185 pounds."

This was printed in January of 1917. Miske hadn't yet fought Dempsey and went on to whip Carl Morris later that year.

 

I'm not questioning joe louis.

What is my agenda then? I'd love to hear your answer.

I mentioned greb to expose your contradiction as you just gloriously did. There are weight limits for a reason. Jack wouldn't be in the same division as lewis, bowe, vitali and wlad.

You can mention **** big guys all you want, for every one of those i'll throw back a **** small guy like hide who got destroyed by bigger men.

I'm not saying these guys are good because they're big. They're good anyway, it just happens these good people outweigh jack by 50 pounds. Just like youn wouldn't match a prime greb with a prime louis.

 

Your agenda luf, is to win this debate [or catfight] at any cost. I am trying to be objective...
1-Harry Greb was a middleweight. There are 8 divisions in boxing as U know for a reason. To give men of equal weights no advantage over smaller men. Some great fighters as walcott, Dillon, Langford, Walker, Greb,
were effective over bigger men, but yhey were rare exceptions..
2- The heavyweight division, because of their sizes ,SIGNIFIED TO the powers that be that a heavyweight who had unique abilities was LARGE enough to tackle anyone regardless of size...There were great HWt blasters as Fitz, Langford, Dillon, Dempsey, Louis,all under 200 pounds that
flattened much larger men than they, some of these men were as big and STRONG as your big boys of today luf. That is a fact that you cannot deny.
You would counter that" don't compare a Willard, Fulton, Morris, Simon, Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera, etc with today's Bowe, Lewis " in ability. Yes
a Bowe,or Lewis might have been better fighters overall, but their CHINS
were not made of any heavier granite than the big boys that Dempsey and Louis FLATTENED. Why in tarnation couldn't a prime Dempsey or Joe Louis
not have done the same damage to a Bowe or Lewis,were they to have HIT THEM ALSO ON THE BUTTON ?.The question to this debate was is a Dempsey or Louis ,under 200 lbs, too small for todays big heavyweights ?
I believe the answer is a resounding NO, as their records prove...
3-Why do you say you respect Louis ,but Dempsey was smaller than Louis..? As I have stated Dempsey was larger than the Brown Bomber from the waist up...He was inordinateley strong for his size. He would often
lift his fallen opponents up from the canvas by putting his gloved hands under his dazed foes armpits and lifting the guy to his feet. Try that sometimes...Could a Bowe, or Lewis Ko a Joe Louis, or a Jack Dempsey ?
Heck yes, but because these two , Dempsey and Louis, come along once or so in a century, I would wager on my guys...SPEED KILLS...:hi:

 

Put this right alongside Sir Douglas Haig's contention from the same era that the machine gun will never be a match to the cavalry in battle.

 

Was this intentional?

 

Hah! No coffee yet to soothe my mighty hangover.

Maybe I should have stuck with "no match for the horse", like Mr. Haig did.