Sonny Liston 1959 vs 1982 Randall Tex Cobb.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Richard M Murrieta, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Cobb would get pulverized to almost unrecognizable levels, but I wouldn't be surprised if he hears the final bell.

    I should mention, I feel the Holmes that crushed him was still in his prime, and that Cobb's surviving such a bombing was still quite complimentary to his chin. I doubt any other heavy at the time would have lasted through it, Holmes was on fire and looking sensational imo.

    On the other hand, to quote Larry, "I guess if Earnie couldn't knock him out, then I had no chance of it either".
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  2. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Earnie had unbelievable power and may have had an edge over Liston in terms of sheer force, but he didn't have 1/4 of Listons boxing ability, combination punching, stamina, or finishing ability. At one point earnie did hurt Cobb bad and scored a flash knockdown but was too exhausted and sloppy to capitalize.

    Liston would not be in that position as he doesn't just bomb away looking to take someone's head off, he knew how to break guys down and set up the finish. Plus with his vastly superior jab he could set up his punches far better than Earnie.

    If Liston manages to get Cobb in a similarly bad position, he will likely end things either that round or the next. He was too much of a pro and a KO artist to let that happen.
     
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    That could depend on the bravery of the referee. The level of heart and resilience Cobb showed against Larry was something to behold.

    It is not unreasonable to suggest Cobb would last against anyone that night.

    On another night I would agree with you though.
     
  4. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    How about a hypothetical fight, pitting 1959 Cleveland Big Cat Williams against 1982 Randall Tex Cobb?
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I think that would be a good fight. Having watched Williams against Terrell and Billy Daniels in his prime as well as against Chuvalo later on… I’m not sure Williams will be able to keep 1982 Cobb entirely on the outside in the way Larry was able to but he can bust him up and pip a SD decision over Cobb in the way Dokes managed. The issue I have is at his best (1980-84) only champs or potential champs beat Cobb near his prime. Dokes, Larry, Norton and Douglas. I won’t write Williams off here, but I don’t see his decision loss to Terrell or even othe draw with Eddie Machen guaranteeing williams can knock out Tex or even score as dominant a win over Cobb in the way Larry did or Sonny would. Quite a few guys went the distance with Williams some were only as good as Frankie Daniels who Sonny Knocked out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  6. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Williams either gets a late TKO or wins a UD (I'd lean towards the former).
     
  7. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Full Member

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  8. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That's not even remotely true Chok. Gregg and Collier (whom knocked out Cobb in one round) were not "champs or potential champs". As a matter of fact, this rings true for Williams. The only people who beat Williams at or near his prime were future champs Liston and Terrell (who I don't think deserved the decision neither did his home-state AP). Williams resume also **** over Cobb's. Even you can't deny this.
     
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  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    we are going to have to respectfully disagree here. it is completely true by 1982 only Dokes and Norton had wins over Cobb. Douglas beat him in 1984. A majority decision that probably finished Cobb as a top fighter.

    The Greg and Collier losses you mention both happened a year later in 1985 a whole 3 years later than the version of Cobb discussed on this thread.

    is that because they were the only good fighters he fought within that time? His wins over Miteff and Daniels were not so remarkable. Henry Cooper knocked out Richardson. I think even Brian London beat guys some quicker. Williams certainly missed out on a lot of guys that might have beat him. I would have liked him to fight Chuvalo when they were younger. Patterson. Johannson, Jones, Moore or Foley. We don’t know what might have happened there. But we do know whitehurst lasted longer against Liston.

    lots of people agreed with the actual decision. Few people gave Williams more than 3 or 4 rounds. And that includes the official judges and the fans there on the evening. The TV commentary did not think it was a bad result. Nobody booed. Good fight though. It was hard fought. Quite close. No robbery.

    overall, Williams has the most historically significant record. In that he is a modern sized HW who spans from Marciano to Foreman. But let’s be honest here, he only knocked out stiffs. At world level, it’s quite comparable to Tex. Cobb really is not so very far behind. As exciting as williams
    was, as much as he pushed great fighters, there is no signature KO win against a ranked man. What 50-50 fight did he win? I don’t think Cobb was expected to beat shavers or Mercado. He was not expected to take Norton or Dokes to disputed decisions.​
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Agreed. Brave man sees out the last bell.
     
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  11. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think you should rewatch the Wepner fight if you think he “saw out the last bell”.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  12. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That's not true. The loss to Greg was 6 months after the one to Douglas whom by your own admission beat a prime Cobb. The Collier loss was 5 months later.

    Again, as much as you repeat that, it's just not true. Machen was the highest ranked heavyweight not named Sonny Liston. Dick Richardson would go on to beat Mildenberger, Whitehurst, Baker, and London. Miteff and Daniels were both ranked. Rischer might've been ranked (some sources have him at #9, others have him just outside #10) and would go on to drop and outpoint Cooper, and sweep Powell. Just to name a few.
    This is just ridiculous. Williams has 3 wins over Miteff and Daniels and they were rated each time they met him in the ring.
    Cooper beat Richardson FIVE YEARS after Williams did. Richardson was a shell of himself, and in fact in his last fight if I remember correctly. Cooper also lost to Rischer as I've mentioned above who Williams knocked senseless prior. He was also knocked down and nearly out by a last minute substitute Miteff (who Williams dominated and battered senseless) and would've been had he not been saved by the bell.
    He beat an older Rischer quicker who was far past his prime at that point, had just been swept by Spencer, and would have only five fights left in his career, losing three of them. That's it.

    As for the rest of their common opponents:

    Young Jack Johnson: Williams knocked him out. London failed to do so.

    Eddie Machen:

    London's performance; Machen dominated the bout as London was little more than a punching bag for the American. London retired in his corner after 5th round, complaining that his nose felt like it was broken. Source:
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    Williams performance: "Williams, the No. 5 contender, felt he had turned in an upset Most of the crowd of 10,000, partial perhaps to the hometown favorite, and one judge agreed. The referee and one judge scored the fight a draw and the second judge gave Williams a three - point edge." Source:
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    Williams nearly floors Machen here.

    “Cleve can punch and he’s fast for a big man He’s twice as fast as Liston I had to keep on him keep on him keep pressing and keep him from getting set” Source:
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    "Machen said Williams was twice as fast as Sonny Liston" Source:
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    Richardson: Williams dropped him in the first, and proceeded to dominate every round, until Richardson got himself DQed to save himself from a beating. London was stopped by Richardson in the 8th.

    I would favor him over all of the above men especially an aging Moore. Jones had the chance to fight him but unfortunately could not even get past Daniels so Daniels fought Williams and proceeded to get dominated and according to reports, beaten so badly he was never the same again.

    He also lasted a lot longer than Folley and Patterson did in 2 fights. I don't understand your point.

    How did you come to this decision? Did you take a poll, a survey, or anything of that sort?

    I agree it wasn't a robbery. I had Williams slightly ahead last I watched it but it wasn't exactly the crime of the century for the fight to be scored for Terrell.

    Again, we went through this already. It's simply not true and you know it.

    According to you, Lamar Clark was not "very far behind" Williams. I stopped taking your comparisons seriously the moment I read that.
    Shavers was 36 and far past his prime.

    Norton was 37 and coming off a gifted draw to Ledoux, who floored him, and was in the process of pummeling him over the top rope in the last round of their bout when the round was prematurely stopped. Before that was a brutal 1st round KO loss to the aging Shavers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    yes that was a boo boo on my behalf. However, Cobb was better than Chuck, and Sonny, at 38, was past his prime by then anyway.

    I agree that they were rated. My point was these results against Billy Daniels were not that remarkable. Points wins. No biggie. Nobody celebrated those wins. These wins did not represent the rise of a future champion.

    no you got that completely wrong. An almighty blunder on your part.

    When Cooper first stopped Richardson it was the same year Williams won by DQ over Richardson! Not five years later. That was the second time.

    Cooper did not just beat Richardson five years after Williams won by DQ against him.

    Cooper and Richardson fought twice in the pros. Cooper won inside the distance both times against Richardson. In fact Coopers twin brother beat also Richardson too.

    What happened was Williams took Richardson on when the Welshman was 1-2 over his last 3 fights. When Cooper stopped him, Richardson was coming off a good win over Bob Baker. Interestingly Richardson agreed to rematch Williams but the big Cat was a no show.

    “Richardson was originally scheduled to fight Cleveland Williams on July 2nd, but Williams claimed a 'message from beyond' told him not to go through with the fight and returned home with Bob Baker filling in last minute on the rescheduled date.”

    in his next bout Richardson was demolished by Cooper. That was the order.

    Brian London knocked Richer rather more senseless. It took Brian just one blow. Poor chap.

    Outpointing Daniels was not a domination at all. On the televised fight with Daniels, Billy was actually ahead after 5 rounds. He hurt Williams in one of the early rounds.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is only partially correct.

    As you very well know, In the early part of Williams career, 23 fights or so, before they took him to New York, his record was a similar hand picked list of amusingly named victims from faraway settlements in Florida who probably were not real fighters.

    An investigation into the true identities of these characters and the lives they led, day jobs and pastimes would be fascinating. Baby booze. Candy McDaniels. Graveyard Walters. Old mother Hubbard…

    That part of Williams career was not so different to our dear friend Lamar.

    However, it is true that the opponents finally improved beyond Clark’s level after the New York debut.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I already said the loss to Douglas, Busters first good win, represented the beginning of the end for Cobb. This was in the end of 1984. The two later losses you mention come in the next year after the cut off point. It represents a different fighter to the 1982 version.
     
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