Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

The average weight of Liston's opponents, pre Patterson was 191lbs.
The average weight of Jeffries , that are listed ,pre Fitz was 186lbs.
Not a disparity to worry about really.
Average weight of Jeffries challengers 186lbs.

The difference to me is that the best opponents of Jeffries were coming off of long layoffs,another was, inactive[ 3 years] ,consumptive, and alcoholic,another was 41 years old.

I would respect him more if he had fought Hart and Johnson, instead of Munroe and Finnegan.

 

Did James Jeffries ever defeat one powerful slugger the same size as him?

Liston defeated 3 > Cleveland Williams 2x, Nino Valdes, and Mike DeJohn

 

1. Shavers ko'd Norton, Ellis, and Young. He also dropped and badly hurt a prime Holmes. He is a much more proven puncher than the Liston opponents.

2. I would have doubts about Lyle except for his impressive showing knocking Foreman down and almost out.

3. Foster--No one can doubt he could punch, but I think it is unproven that he was a really top level puncher. His top victims, Folley and Williams, were far, far, far past it, and as you pointed out, he was not able to stop "breathing" contenders. His most impressive ko might well be Bepi Ros, a Euro journeyman known for durability.

Bottom line--a puncher proves he is top level by knocking out top level opposition or at least showing that he could punch against them, like Shavers and Lyle did, or Firpo or Thompson did in earlier eras. DeJohn fails this test, and Valdes and Williams leave question marks.

Jeffries opponents, as I pointed out, did stop the best of the time.

 

Yes.... I see that too.....:hey

MR.BILL

 

so Joe Choynski hit harder than Mac Foster?

Norton was 35 and past his prime, Ellis was practically washed up at that point, and Jimmy Young was a novice with less than 10 fights. You consider these top level opponents or just top names?


what about Gerry Cooney? do you consider him a hard puncher? Whom did he ever knockout that was top level in their prime?

Perhaps Choynski and Fitz hit harder than him too eh?

 

I suppose Ruhlin would be the nearest to filling the bill. 6'2'' 190lbs -200lbs, a good if not a dynamite puncher.

 

I do consider Gerald Cooney a puncher.......... A fighter? Well, that's open for debate........ A puncher? YES! The hooks and rights that Cooney hit Norton with in 1981 still makes me cringe....... WICKED!

MR.BILL

 

He is?


Valdez Kayoed 5 Ring Magazine top 10 opponents. Shavers kayoed only 1.


Williams Kayoed 1 Ring Magazine opponent, just like Shavers. Williams also Kayoed Ernie Terrell, the only knockout loss in his first 13 years as pro. I think this is more impressive than Shavers stoppage over a sharply declined Norton(who as we know is susceptible to punchers, terrell is not)


Mike DeJohn kayoed 2 Ring Magazine opponents, 1 more than Shavers.

 

Ruhlin a "dynamite" puncher? You got a source for that one. Dynamite is a strong word.


Ruhlin is still a solid 10-15lb less than Valdes and Williams and shorter than all 3.

Jeffries had an 18lb weight advantage on Ruhlin.

 

1. DeJohn and youtube--I assume you are speaking of the ko of Powell. I have seen it on youtube. I also saw it live back in 1959 and saw DeJohn quite often on TV, probably ten times or so. Powell was one of those physical marvels (6' 4" 215lbs) who seems to impress people, but he had a weak jaw. Charley Norkus had ko'd him. Most of the time DeJohn plodded through to a decision. I remember his fight with Bob Cleroux. Cleroux was noted for having a fairly strong chin. He walked right into a volley of DeJohn left hooks, but stayed upright. In fairness, DeJohn won the decision, but I don't know how high Cleroux rates as an all-time chin--still DeJohn couldn't put him down.

2. I gave the ko's per fights, but did not comment on them. I think Satterfield was a bigger puncher than DeJohn, Valdes, or Williams.

 

Why is the Johnson fight important. Johnson was after all a much better fighter than Leotis Martin and Jeff lasted longer against him than Liston did against Martin. We are not talking about the Jeffries of 1910 here, are we?

 

"Williams was not the most skilled or most durable"

As a matter of fact, when did he show he could stand up to a top puncher at all? Machen is the only one close. Terrell wasn't much of a puncher, was green, and hadn't filled out. He barely weighed over 190 lbs when Williams stopped him.

YOU might see him hammering Patterson and Johansson. I see a man with a weak chin who leaves himself wide open when he throws his left. In 1959 he was actually behind Powell. Powell had banked a ko of Valdes. Williams had never defeated a live contender.

 

I am not a particular fan of taking a champions two worst title opponents and suggesting better alternatives.

If a champion is genuinely fighting the best, then I can allow him a tune up ocasionaly.

Jeffries fought Finegan in the same 12 month period that he fought Fitz, Sharkey and Corbett back to back, so that can stand.

Munroe was not the best challenger available, but he had a good manger.

Obviously Johnson was Jeffries chance at sealing GOAT status, which he missed. I would still sugest that before Johnson came allong, Jeffries did a rather good job of meeting the best contenders. He was the prototype for Louis, Marciano, and Ali.

 

What puncher was willing to fight him in his prime(1958-1964) outside of Liston? Williams was the most avoided fighter of that era.

1. He was 23-3 and 24 years old. That's hardly green to me. Within a year, he would be defeating top contenders like Folley.

2. Barely over 190lb? He weighed in at 198lb, the same weight he weighed when he defeated Eddie Machen for the WBA heavyweight title in 1965.

3. Terrell was very durable. This was the ONLY time terrell was ever knocked out in his first 13 years as a pro. Impressive for Williams.



Take Alonzo Johnson: He fought every top name you can think of. Eddie Machen, Nino Valdes, Alejandro Lavorante, Zora Folley, Muhammad Ali Never been stopped before.
Went the distance with ALL of them. Williams BLASTED him away in one round!

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9369&cat=boxer

 

Ruhlin is a little under-rated today.

I have articles which suggest that he was seen as being a teir above Tom Sharkey as a fighter.

He was also seen at one point as being the only plausible challenger to Jeffries, beacause he was best equiped to counter him physicaly.