Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

I think Williams was one of the more skilled sluggers. Two of the better boxers of the era, Machen and Terrell were unable to outbox him. I scored Terrell-Williams II for Williams, as did the AP report. AP report also scored Machen-Williams for Machen. Williams had he speed most sluggers didnt have

 

I have film of him getting spanked by Denver Ed Martin in a sparring session. I think thats a fighter whose underrated.

 

Fogey,

I only mentioned Jimmy Jeff of '10 cuz of what he did between New Years Day 1910 to July 4, 1910 was amazing in itself for that time zone......... No other athlete of any kind went from being a total slob at 330+ pounds to being a fit fighter / athlete at 227 pounds in a frame of "SIX" months like Jimmy Jeff did back in 1910...... I thought that achievement alone was worthy of note........ Of course we all know now it was basically a smoke-screen in which Jeff looked great for a painting or still photo-shoot......... His skills were shot by 1910 at age 35...............

Cleve Williams OFTEN is accused of sucking ass against top-notch comp......... I know that, too......... Still, C.W. was no *****......... He was in great shape for the most part and a wicked puncher.......... Plus, he lived through a 1964 "Pig" shooting at point blank range of a .357 magnum bullet.......... Williams was tuff..............

MR.BILL

 

To be fair though, Ruhlin seems to have improved his technique considerably throughout his career.

I have of course argued for Martin as vocaly as anybody on this site.

 

does anyone even have any cleveland William fights besides the ones against Liston and Ali?
I'd love to see more of his fights. preferably on YouTube.

 

1. "Joe Choynski hit harder than Mac Foster"

Well, a 30.06 hits harder than a UZI. Doesn't exactly mean that a UZI isn't more dangerous. There is more to it than just punch by punch power. The fighter is not fighting a punching bag. He is fighting an opponent who is moving quickly about and the issue is not only how hard one hits but if one can time a punch and get it home. Smaller men generally have had an advantage here and it seems that men in the 170's and 180's often have hit hard enough to knock out 220 lb men.

Bottom line for me--Fitz knocked out Corbett. I doubt if Mac Foster would have. Choynski knocked out Jack Johnson. Johnson was green, so perhaps Foster has a good shot, but I'm not so certain he would have ever caught up to Johnson.

2. Norton and Ellis were rated. Stopping Young is probably about as impressive as stopping Erskine. You brushed aside that Shavers knocked down and badly hurt Holmes when Holmes was the best in the world.

 

I don't know how your stats on Shavers could be accurate. Jimmy Ellis was highly rated when Shavers ko'd him. Ken Norton was highly rated. Howard "The Black Fox" Smith was rated. Norton and Ellis were at one time top level fighters and were still so rated when Shavers fought them. Ellis to that point had only lost to Frazier and Ali at heavy. Norton was coming off a tight loss to Holmes. Young would soon become a top man. And Shavers had Holmes in deep doo-doo when Larry was the top man in the world.

Mike DeJohn doesn't come close to matching any of this.

Williams stopped a green Terrell. Impressive enough, but no match for Shavers career. Valdes generally beat some decent opponents, but except for the green Jackson, no one I would rate up there with the best of Shavers' victims.

 

1 . Ellis was 33 years old and would lose 4 out of his next 5 fights. He had not done anything in the past 2 years prior to LOSING to ali.

2. Norton was 35 and way past it. he coudln't even beat Scott Ledoux at that stage.

3. So did Renaldo Snipes. Cleveland Williams broke the nose and backed up sonny liston in his prime. the only fighter ever to hurt sonny in his prime.





Young was 7-3 when he fought Shavers.

Joe Erskine was 29-0 when he fought Nino Valdes


Such a comparison is blasphemy

 

1. Yes Ken Norton was rated. He was also 35 years old and way past his prime, as evident of his performance in the scott ledoux fight. The holmes fight took everything out of Norton.


2. I don't know why Jimmy Ellis was that highly rated. he had not done anything in 2 years since the Ali losss...was now 33 years old, and would lose 4 out of his next 5 fights. He was not in his prime


3. I never knew Howard Smith was rated. Wow. What a joke. That is a disgrace.



Jimmy Young was 7-3 when shavers beat him! 7-3!!!!! A more experienced Young was robbed against Shavers a year later

so did renaldo snipes :good




Bottom line: Norton and Ellis were way past there primes when shavers beat them, and young was a very inexperienced 7-3 fighter. I am not impressed at all.

 

I would take the Terrell Williams knocked out over the far past their prime versions of norton and ellis. I would also take the 23-3 Ernie Terrell over the 7-3 jimmy young.

 

1. The spin on Williams back in the sixties was that his management was leary of matching him with punchers after the Satterfield and Liston debacles. Hard to say, but your take is certainly different than that of the boxing establishment of the time. He didn't get the play in the Police Gazette that Cleroux and Chuvalo got. They had proven whiskers.

2. Alonzo Johnson--He was fairly durable, I guess, but the bottom line was that within three years he had also been ko'd by not only Machen, but also Tod Herring (!), Jim Beattie (!!) and puffed up lightheavy Wayne Thornton (!!!). I just don't think this trial horse type proves much about all time punching power.

 

According to Williams manager, the satterfight fight wasn't a debacle. Lou Visconti said he took it because "We have everything to gain and nothing to lose." He is essentially saying his fighter is so green it doesnt matter if he wins or loses. Visconti even refers to it as hoping "we will get lucky". its a huge step up for williams. Williams was only 20 years old, underweight, and inexperienced against world class opposition. he also took the fight as a late substitute.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...6&dq=bob+satterfield+cleveland+williams&hl=en

 

1. Ellis was the #3 contender in 1972, behind the champion Frazier, #1 contender Ali, and #2 contender Foreman. You have a point about him not doing much. He was on a winning streak against fourth raters, but had been beaten at heavy only by Frazier and Ali.

2. Norton--How do you know the Holmes fight took everything out of Norton. Perhaps the ko loss to Shavers took everything out of him.

3. Smith--trash the legendary Black Fox all you want. He was #7 in the world in 1976.

4. "so did Renaldo Snipes"--so knocking Holmes down is not impressive if someone else did it?

5. "A more experienced Young was robbed"--many thought he was robbed against Ali and Norton also.

 

It seemed drastically high. Ellis was also 33 in 1973, and a fighter of his style who relied on speed and reflexes, I think it's safe to say he was past it. His performances post shavers leave me further inclined to dub him washed up.

Norton said in his book he was never the same after the holmes fight

Kinda. It simply means Shavers didn't accomplish something other's could do. Williams broke listons nose and backed him up, no one ever did that to liston in his prime.

Shavers didn't beat that young, it was ruled a draw. Shavers does not get credit for the victory.

 

"Williams broke Liston's nose and backed him up, no one ever did that to Liston in his prime"

Okay, but Marshall broke his jaw, and I think DeJohn battered him and had him cut also. I have to say that Machen occasionally forced Liston to retreat when he launched one of his few offensives.

I consider knocking Holmes down more impressive than anything Williams did to Liston, myself.