Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

Well, Williams' record was actually 31-1. He was certainly green compared to Satterfield, but was already over 200 lbs. He was 8 days short of his 21st birthday. He had fought and defeated a former top ten heavyweight, Omelio Agramonte, who had twice gone the distance with Joe Louis.

Ernie Terrell was 24-3. He was certainly green compared to Williams, and was 197 lbs for their first fight. He was 1 day short of his 23rd birthday. He had fought and defeated a former top ten heavyweight, Sid Peaks.

Bottom line--I would rate the two youngsters in about the same position. Both were going in against men with fearsome reps as punchers. Terrell was not a punching threat himself, while Williams was, and I imagine Williams' management thought he had a good chance of exploiting Satterfield's glass jaw. Talking up a match with Marciano hardly indicates Visconti considered this fight a hopeless proposition.

 

Put yourself back in the spring of 1915 before the Johnson-Willard fight. You have been a boxing fan since 1880 and look back over the heavyweight scene for a generation.

Sullivan--was ko'd by one man, Corbett, and that man fought Jeffries and failed to stop him.

Corbett--was ko'd by two men, one Jeffries, the other Fitz, and Fitz had fought Jeffries and failed to knock him out.

Johnson--had been ko'd by two men, Klondike John Haynes and Joe Choynski. Choynski had fought Jeffries and failed to knock him out.

So the champions who other than Jeff himself had dominated boxing from 1880 to 1915 had been ko'd by four men besides Jeff, and Jeff had survived against three of these men. No wonder he had a great reputation for his chin.

If one looked back from 1968, and had a similar record, someone like Liston would have had to have fought and survived a man who ko'd Louis, a man who ko'd Marciano, and a man who ko'd Ali.

 

I disagree. Within one year, Terrell would be defeating TOP ranking heavyweight contenders. It took Williams another 5 years before he fought top 10 rated opposition in 1959.


Terrell was much much further along. its not even close.

 

I agree that Liston was a better two fisted puncher than Jeffries. I don't know if that is the only issue, though. I think Jeffries probably punched harder than anyone Liston fought, or at least survived, and so the question of how well he could survive Jeff's punch is hardly a closed point. Jeff is not only perhaps as hard a puncher, but he almost certainly had more stamina than the big men Liston fought and so is likely to be able to keep throwing hard punches longer.

 

Williams went into the army for two years after the Satterfield fight.

Also, Terrell simply moved not only faster but further. He ended up being the #1 contender. Williams was never better than #4.

 

So your saying had Williams fought in 1955, he was capable of defeating the # 4 and # 5 rated heavyweight contenders in the world? That is essentially what Terrell did one year after losing to Williams.


That would mean Williams in 1955 would have to defeat Bob Baker and Earl Walls.



Williams weighed 200lb FLAT against satterfield. williams best weight was closer to 215lb, a good 15lb lighter than his fully mature self. I am 23, and I have to tell you, I am alot stronger now at 23 than I was at 20 years old.

 

"That would mean Williams in 1955 would have to defeat Bob Baker and Earl Walls."

He never in his whole career defeated fighters that highly rated. When all is said and done, Terrell was a notch above Williams as a contender. He was at one time the legitimate #1 contender. Williams never rose above #4 and didn't deserve to.

When Williams got back from the army in 1956, what did he do. He spun his wheels for three years, before getting slaughtered by Liston in 1959 and 1960. One could argue that Terrell could not have beaten the Liston of 1959-1960, but I think he would have done better. It is only in 1961 when he was 28 that Williams managed to defeat semi-names such as Miteff and Alonzo Johnson, and then the green Terrell. By 1963 he was edged by Terrell in a rematch.

I remember watching Williams struggle to two unimpressive 10 round decisions over Billy Daniels, probably one of his higher rated opponents. Between those two decisions, Daniels was ko'd by Karl Mildenberger.

I just don't think Williams was as good as you maintain.

 

1. Have u ever scored the Terrell-Williams II fight? I did. I scored the fight for Williams. Williams even knocked Terrell down in the 4th round. AP scored the fight 46-45 for Williams. Williams should be 2-0 against Terrell in my book. Very Close fight, but I gave the nod to Cleveland. I wouldn't classify it as a robbery though.


2. You say Williams got "Slaughtered" by liston, but liston himself said no one ever hurt him as much as Williams in his prime, and liston also said Williams gave him his toughest fights. Williams broke his nose in both fights, and backed him up. No one did that to Sonny.

3. AP scored the Machen-Williams fight for Big Cat Wiliams


Williams could easily on a fair card be 3-0 against Eddie Machen and Ernie Terrell.

Perhaps he is not. Maybe he is somewhere in between. Think of it this way. Most of the better sluggers in history all had huge trouble with "Good Boxer types". Williams did not.


"In a way, Williams is tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other one doesn't have"- Eddie Machen

 

1. "Have you seen Williams-Terrell II"--Yes. The original broadcast. I remember it as being very close. I think it is tendentious to try to select evidence giving this fight to one or the other. It was a tight fight and Terrell got the split decision.

2. Machen--fought in Williams' home town. Another tight fight.

3. Williams could be 3-0. And he could also fairly be 1-2.

4. Williams as Liston's toughest opponent--as long as Eddie Machen is being quoted, this is him on Williams as Liston's toughest opponent from Sports Illustrated 2-10-1964

"He says Cleveland Williams is the toughest guy he ever fought. That's a laugh."

"Liston is not the smartest guy in the world. He moves like a train-one track all the time. When he fights a sitting duck like Patterson, or a Williams, he knocks them off the track. I think of my fight with him and I know I can beat him. He jabs, puts everything behind it--then he drops his left hand. No man can get away with that forever."

My own take is that Williams was a better boxer than generally given credit for, but was not the killer puncher he is often cracked up to be. He was a contender who never quite seemed to come through when it mattered with that big effort.


Mike DeJohn, on the other hand, is just being overrated. That ko of Powell is not all that impressive to me. Powell looks clumsy and awkward. What is he doing when he gets hit with that left--he is bent over with his hands at his side, stumbling, when an off balance DeJohn hits him with a left and he's down. He shows no survival ability at all when he gets up.

 

Old Fog,

Since you were around live during the era we are talking about(which is awesome)...what was the general consensus on the top 5 punchers of the patterson/liston era. Say 1956-1964


if I did my research correctly it seems it would go like this


1. Sonny Liston
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Ingemar Johansson
4. Cleveland Williams
5. Nino Valdes

HM: Old Archie Moore, Mike DeJohn, Henry Cooper


I would like to place Archie higher, but post 1956, he did not take on one genuine top heavyweight contender except Ali(Although his win over # 4 rated Alejandro Lavorante is highly impressive). Old age was finally catching up with Archie. Valdes on the otherhand was blowing away fighters like Joe Erksine, Harold Carter, Dick Richardson, Brian London, Pat McMutry, Johnny Summerlin, Hans Freidrich.


When you take a look at this list...Liston defeated 3 out of the 4 top punchers(not including himself) and 1 honorable mention. He certainly fought many of the better punchers of the era.

 

I think Satterfield would probably have been considered the #4 man by most as a pure puncher. He was almost an exact contemporary of Valdes.

I remember pretty much how they were rated as fighters in the yearbooks

Tier one--Sonny Liston

Tier two--Patterson & Johansson

Tier three--Moore and Johnson

Tier four--Machen and Folley

Tier five--Williams, Cleroux, Cooper, Chuvalo, DeJohn

Honestly, that is the way the True Yearbooks rated them. Williams was not considered all that much of a contender until 1962 or so when he got the draw with Machen.


I remember Teddy Carroll in Ring in 1962 evaluating the contenders to Liston like this:

1. Patterson
2. Johansson
3. Clay (coming golden boy)
4. Machen

 

This thread has been a great read. op

 

For sure it has produced some fascinating analysis.

 

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Well worth a bump....