Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

I am prepared to acknowledge it if you provide me evidence he is capable of taking a punch from a powerful man his OWN size.

 

I don't put Jeffries' chin in the same class that many others here do, but it was pretty decent:

1) Johnson's uppercuts landed hard and flush on Jeffries, but Johnson still needed 15 rounds to put Jeffries away.

2) Jeffries' opponents hit him with tiny gloves. If Gerald McClellan landed power punches on a heavyweight opponent using MMA gloves and the heavyweight didn't budge, I'd be fairly impressed. For that matter, Sharkey and Johnson also landed a lot on Jeffries with tiny gloves, and they were 180+ and 200+ pounds, respectively.

3) Theoretically, if Jeffries took a shellacking from Marciano and didn't go down, you'd give Jeffries credit for a pretty good chin. Yet Marciano wasn't much bigger than some of Jeff's other opponents.

(Personally, I don't consider Marciano a puncher in the same league as Foreman, Liston, Shavers, or any of the 200+ pound punchers, but to each his own).

 

Johnson had a punch, but he was not a big puncher. More of a sharp hitter who caught you off guard. Johnson floored Jeffries three times and knocked him out. i don't know if bringing him up backs your point.

Jeffries had 30-40lb on Marciano. I thought I specificully asked "his own size"??

In terms of "hardest hitting" I agree. But I do think Marciano and Dempsey were by far the greatest 185lb punchers of all time..and it's not close. I also think these two out of anyone had the best shot to knock out the ATG heavyweights above 200lb.

 

Jeffries was a zombie in there. He couldn't fight back effectively, and he absorbed lots of punches for a very long time before he collapsed.

This does seem to support my position. Basically, his chin was the only thing he had left.

Okay, but why are you specifically looking for a puncher Jeffries' own size? If we're evaluating the guy's chin, isn't it more important to look for fighters who hit simply him hard, regardless of their weight?

I guess my question is has two parts. In your opinion:

1) How much harder did Liston hit than Sharkey?

2) Do the gloves compensate for this difference? Why or why not?

I'd agree with that.

 

I think that size and power are over-rated in this equation.

For example George Foreman in his 40s soaked up the punches of the superheavyweight monsters yet Jimmy Young dumped him on his butt.

An ounce of punching technique is worth a pound of power.

Now Jeffries had never tasted the canvas before he met Jack Johnson. He had been fighting world class fighters who were serious bangers, and superior technicians, while just a novice himself.

Your chin gets tested when you step up in competition and Jeffries stepped up while verry inexperienced. Even Sonny Liston got dropped in his early fights.

I give Jeffries more credit for not getting dropped between his debut and winning the tile than I do to most champions for not getting droped in their entire careers.

 

We have hl of the 2nd Sharkey fight in 1899.

 

I gotta go with '59 Liston to be honest.... Liston was a beast..... Yes, of course Jimmy Jeff was a monster for the circa--1900 circuit of boxing, but he still only had roughly 20 pro fights to his resume / name....... Jimmy Jeff never faced a mother of a duck like Sonny Liston of 1959........

Liston KO-10 Jeffries........

MR.BILL

 

Of Jim's 23 known fights, I think it would be fair to say that 16 of them could safely have been rated among the top 10 heavyweights in the world, either in the year he fought them or within a couple years of when he fought them. With that type of competition on his resume, coming away with only one comeback loss is pretty damn impressive!

 

Also some rounds against Ruhlin.

 

Jeffries chin was not tested against big heavyweights,but he did face Choynsky and Fitz without going down so I take his chin on trust.:good
Liston would likely bust him up rather than drop him imo.
No way would this be a short fight,Jeffries would take some stopping,at least 8rds of punishment for both men.Liston Williams,but extended.

 

I pick Liston, but I would like to comment on two points for Jeffries:

1. Chin

I think Jeffries has the more proven chin. The names given to prove Liston had an iron jaw, DeJohn, Valdes, and Williams, were not that proven as punchers against top competition, and Patterson never hit Liston a solid punch.

DeJohn, Valdes, Williams--the argument here seems to be that big men equals big punchers. These men could certainly punch, but their ko victims are not that impressive a bunch.

A. DeJohn--(32 ko's in 60 fights) top ko victims are Alex Miteff, Charley Powell, and Billy Hunter. In an historical sense, these guys are second-tier or fringe contenders at best.

B. Valdes--(36 ko's in 71 fights) does much better. Top ko victims Omelio Agramonte, Heinz Neuhaus, Hurricane Jackson, Don Cockell, Joe Erskine, Johnny Summerlin, Howard Carter, Pat McMurtry, and Brian London. Fringe contenders for the most part, the only men who got close to the top of the division were Cockell and Jackson, but both failed badly against really top men.

C. Williams (58 ko's in 92 fights) top ko's were over John Holman, Alex Miteff, Ernie Terrell, Alonzo Johnson, Young Jack Johnson, and Roger Rischer. Only Terrell is a moderately impressive name, and he was fairly green when Williams got him.

Bottom line--except for Patterson, who ko'd Johansson, none of Liston's victims ever ko'd a heavyweight champion. Other than Patterson, I don't think any of them ko'd a lightheavyweight champion either (*I don't count the weird "drug ko" of Harold Johnson by Julio Medeiros).

cont below

 

If you have to look at some of theses guys durability.

Alonzo Johnson had fought pretty much every top fighter out there at the time and had never been stopped before. Cleveland Williams flattened him in one round

Terrell had a great chin. this was the only time Terrell was ever knocked out near his prime. This was the only knockout he would suffer in his first 13 years as a pro.

Hurriance Jackson was considered to have a steel chin. He was one of those types of fighters that was damm near impossible to stop. it took Floyd Patterson 22 rounds to do so. Valdes flattened him in just 2 rounds. Jackson was certainly a major challenger in the heavyweight division.

Valdes blew Cockell away far easier than Marciano did

Valdes flattened Joe Erksine in one round. It took Henry cooper 3 fights and well over 20 rounds to do the trick. johansson it took 13 rounds to stop him.

Agramonte went 20 rounds with joe Louis without being stopped. Valdes stopped him in ten.

Neuhas was the European Champion and top 10 contender, he was a big guy who had never been stopped before.

H carter was rated very highly at the time, and valdes scored an impressive come from behind KO.

George Chuvalo called Mike DeJohn the hardest hitter he ever fought. Chuvalo fought Foreman, Frazier, Patterson, and other big punchers. This is quite a compliment.

Dejohn may not have been the best fighter, but he had a thunderous left hook and was a big man. Everyone who was involved in the era said he had a whale of a left hook.



Jeffries never fought any men close to the size of these big punchers. That's a fact.


Joe Choynski, Tom Sharkey and Bob Fitzsimmons were 30-40lb lighter and 4-6 inches shorter than Dejohn, Valdes, and Williams. Despite knocking out eachother, they never knocked out top rated men the size of dejohn, valdez, or williams.

 

1. Chin (part 2)

Jeffries opponents:

A. Corbett--not impressive statistically, but he ko'd John L Sullivan

B. Fitz--(67 ko's in 103 fights) top ko's Jim Corbett, Tom Sharkey, Gus Ruhlin, and Peter Maher. Corbett of course was champion, the others very top level men.

C. Choynski--(37 ko's in 83 fights) top ko's George Godfrey, Frank Childs, Jack Johnson, and Peter Maher. Johnson was green, but would go on to dominate the division for the next 15 years.

D. Sharkey--(37 ko's in 52 fights) top ko's Joe Goddard, Gus Ruhlin. This man has an impressive statistical record and did stop top contender Ruhlin in one.

E. Ruhlin--(21 ko's in 44 fights) top ko's Tom Sharkey (2). Did stop top contender Sharkey twice.

F. Goddard--(31 ko's in 59 fights) top ko's Joe Choynski, Mick Dooley, Peter Maher. Interestingly, the aging and slipping Valdes is pumped as a major victim for Liston while the aging and slipping Goddard is dismissed, but Goddard was still good enough to blow Maher away in 1 in his next fight.

Bottom line--In historical terms, there is no comparision between the punchers Jeffries stood up to and those Liston survived. Jeffries survived punchers who stopped champions who reigned all the way from 1882 to 1915. Liston survived one man who ko'd a champion, a champion who got the title by beating him and reigned only one year until losing it back to him. I can't think of any top names from the 1880's to about 1905 or so that Jeffries neither stopped himself, nor was stopped by someone he defeated. Even Bob Armstrong, not one of Jeff's really top opponents, ko'd Denver Ed Martin and Paddy Slavin.
In contrast, Liston's victims are mainly second-tier contenders who failed time and again against the elite of the division.
Patterson is the exception, but he never really tested Liston's jaw. Ali is of course another exception, but Liston was stopped twice by him.

I think the sixty years between Jeffries and Liston saw an improvement in the division, but Liston's record really doesn't match Jeffries' as far as standing up to the best of his time.

 

Interesting. none of these men even close to the size of Valdes, Dejohn, or Williams

None of his Kayos even close to the size of Dejohn, Williams, or Valdes

hmmm None of these men even close to 6'3 215lb

hmmm nevr kayoed a rated contender above 200lb

I find it extremely interesting how you dismiss fighters like Williams, Dejohn, Valdes for "Failing" at the top level... when in fact these men all earned high ratings during pattersons title reign...yet floyd patterson refused to fight these men because they were too dangerous.


How do we know these guys "failed" they never got their shot against patterson because Damato was scared. For all we know, these men might have blasted patterson away early.