Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

The fly in the ointment of this argument is that you surmise that because Williams, and Dejohn,
did not ko many top fighters this reflects on their power.
You can cite many big punchers ,universally acclaimed as such that did not have many names on their records.
Mac Foster
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers ,for example,and percentages are notoriously misleading for example.
George Ko Chaney 42%
Ike Williams 38%
Lew Jenkins 42%
Bob Satterfield 44%

Is there anyone on this forum, apart from yourself, who does not think that Cleve Williams was a top puncher? I doubt it.
As to Dejohn a glance at You Tube should put this question to rest ,he was a monstrous left hooker.
I have no problem recognising Jeffries sturdiness of chin, because he withstood Choynsky and Fitz's shots ,but to argue that Liston's opponents were inferior in power is a step I will not take.

 

Ol' Jeff made his rep by beating up smaller and aged dudes' like "Fitz and Corbett." Later on, Jeff got his clock cleaned by Johnson in '10 out in Reno......... How the hell could you go against the '59 Liston is beyond me.?.? Cheers.....

MR.BILL

 

I stand corrected.

 

Cleveland Williams is another dude who prolly would've been a champion had he fought his peak yrs in a different era other than the very late 50 to early 1960s.......

I can see Cleveland Williams hammering dudes like "Johansson and Patterson" had he been given the opportunity to do so around circa--1960.......

Cleveland Williams was not the most skilled or most durable heavyweight of all-time, but he was big, strong and powerful for his his era......

MR.BILL

 

Well the thing about these smaller older dudes is that nobody at the time questioned that they were the best challengers available.

Would you respect him more if he had fought Ed Dunkhorst and Jim Jeffrords instead of Fitzsimmons and Corbett?

Liston himself built his resume mostly against fighters under 200lbs, but again they were the best challengers around.

 

True... But Jeff was bigger and close to a decade younger than both "Fitz and Corby" when they met in the ring between 1899 to 1903 or so.....

Liston was a big dude for the late 50s and early 60s, but he was also widely considered a liar about his age, etc...... Personally I truly feel Sonny Liston was born between 1928 thru 1932, but I have no real proof about any of this...... So by 1958 or so, a peaked Liston was anywhere between 26 to 30 yrs of age........ That's about right for a heavyweight......

I do know that I'd rather mess with "Fitz and Corbett" in a time machine rather than that 1959 / '60 version of Cleveland Williams any night.....

MR.BILL

 

1. "None of these men were even close to 6' 3" 215 lbs"

And if Jeff or any other fighter had ko'd in their primes Langford, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, and Johansson, as well as the Louis who ko'd Schmeling and the Johnson who ko'd Burns, cleaning out the division over a fifty year span, your rebuttal could be that "none of these men were even close to 6' 3" 215lbs" and just as convincing.

Big does not trump good.

2. on Williams, DeJohn, and Valdes "failing" against top competition. Well, it is easy to claim these men would have ko'd a prime Patterson, but they almost completely failed against the top men they DID fight. To give him his due, Valdes outpointed Charles in 1953. Other than that he lost to Moore (2), Johnson, Baker (2), Satterfield, Machen (2), and Folley. DeJohn never beat a top men, losing by ko to Machen and Folley. Williams fought so few it is hard to judge. Satterfield stopped him in 1954. Liston in 1959 and 1960, all prior to the third round. He did stop a green Terrell but lost a return. He drew in 1962 with Machen. That is about it until he was washed up. I admit he is hard to evaluate.

 

While I agree that bigger isn't always better, but I do feel it must be factored into the mix to a degree...... Jimmy Jeff was a monster at 6' + inches tall and a solid 218 to 227 pounds during his best yrs of the ring and his life in general....... Plus, Jeff was never considered a lame lummox, either.... NO! Jeff was athletic and owned finess for a big man..... I do feel Jimmy Jeff was very dangerous in the ring as a general for circa--1900.......

Now, while we all know "Rob Fitz and Jim Corby" were also very skilled and owned ring savvy, we must also factor in that both guys were generally under 185 pounds in thier prime-time days and nights of the ring..... And for a hulking man like Jimmy Jeff, he must've been licking his chops knowing he was much younger and much bigger than both of them (Fitz & Corby) soon to be victims of his....... I doubt Jimmy Jeff had much fear of either Fitz or Corbett........

Point is, I think Sonny Liston was much more concerned in 1959 when he was pitted up against Cleveland Williams...... Williams was a big man with power and ripped muscles overall his body....... However, Liston pulled through like a great fighter must do........

MR.BILL

 

Old Fogey...

Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Mac Foster...these 3 men barely kayoed any rated heavyweights, and all 3 failed miserably when they stepped up in competition. Would you consider taking punches off of these 3 men less formidable than taking punches off of 165lbers Joe Choynski and Bob Fitzsimmons?


Because that is the arguement you are making

 

Interesting question.

Williams was the guy who nobody wanted to face from Patterson downward, and Liston took him on twice. After he won the title, Liston said that anybody who wanted a shot at him would have to go through Williams, which gives you some idea of what he thought of Williams relative to the other top contenders.

When Jeffries challenged Fitzsimmons for the title he had only a dozen or so fights under his belt. Fitzsimmons was deemed to be invincible by some sections of the press, and he had killed three men in the ring. Jeffries seems to have been confident that he would win, but he did place a bet on Fitzsimmons so that he would be covered financialy if he lost.

I think that both Jeffries and Liston believed on the way up that they were capable of beating any contender out there.

 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...1,4083053&dq=cleveland+williams+puncher&hl=en


http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...7,1828387&dq=cleveland+williams+puncher&hl=en

 

I think people are underrating Mike DeJohn's power. Perhaps John Garfield can chime in. I have heard some talk very highly about DeJohn's left hook. Dejohn looks closer to 6'5 in photos.

If it's one thing about Charlie Powell...he could bang. he was enormous too. Watch DeJohn outslug him easily

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_s1ohwBbJA[/ame]

 

I love my video of "Gentleman Jim" with Errol Flynn from '42............. It 'tis one of my all-time favs in terms of boxing films....... WORD!

I wish Hollywood would do a feature about Jim Jeffries......... I suppose I am asking way too much there.?.?

I also love my video of "The Great White Hope" with James Earl Jones from '70, but the film could've been much better....... Yet I'll take what I can get........ Hollywood would be wise to remake that film with a BIG budget.........

MR.BILL