Sonny Liston (1960) vs "Iron" Mike Tyson (1988) - who wins?

He absolutely was bullied by Holyfield. I think Tyson was expecting a one round blowout, as everyone thought Holy had nothing left. Headhunter Tyson was a horrible matchup for Holyfield the Warrior.

Note I did say "This goes both ways." My only point was when two great men have never faced anyone like each other before, the fight is virtually guaranteed to go differently than it looks on paper. Seemingly apparent advantages can be nullified against a higher level of competition. Someone said Liston could handle a D'amato trained fighter because of the way he took out Patterson. I don't think you can make such a connection. Tyson and Patterson are very different.

 

My point is that he controlled distance inside with his strength. You had to clinch and hold for life a la Smith if you wanted to smother his attack inside. Liston never fought a guy with near the strength of a Tyson... and no that stringbean Williams doesn't come close. Different era's, different levels of athletes that both guys faced.

 

I cited Tillis, Green, Smith and Tucker as evidence he wasn't the irresistible force when he was at his peak that his fans sometimes claim, and I stand by that. Yes, he dominated all four, and yes, he was a devastating puncher, but he could be survived in a way very few were able to survive either Foreman or Frazier at their peaks. (For example, I believe Dino Denis would have remained upright and gone the full distance with Tyson when Foreman stopped him.) Yes, I think Liston could have withstood or evaded whatever Mike brought into the ring.

Smith could never have smothered and out muscled Foreman in the clinches like he did Tyson, nor could Smith have done that with Liston either. We know Mike wouldn't have been able to out jab Sonny like he did Tucker.

 

Tyson could barely do anything on the inside in the clinches. He usually just lay there getting tied up, and was easily walked back the way he stood with his feet more or less level.
It was a definite area Tyson was weak in. It's baffling how he's been built up by some as this superb all-rounder. He certainly was not a crude, totally unpolished slugger, but he was very good in a few key areas and kind of average in a few others. And he only had one gear, one rhythm.

 

The "almost" in my post was for rarities like Fitz but they are few and far between. There are 100's of great punchers with anomolies on their record.

Even Duo's beloved (rates him greatest for power i believe) Earnie Shavers has holes if we go at him this shallow. Rondon was stopped by Foster at 175 in 2, then by Lyle at heavy in 2, then went 10 with Earnie. Does this mean The Acorn can't punch? Bob Stallings had been stopped by many a man yet went 10 with Earn.

Earnie can punch, and so can Tyson. Nothing surer. I remember the hype around Tyson's immense power as he came thru pre title, they gathered comments from some of his fallen victims and it was quite a good read. As one expert said, his punches sounded so much different from the other heavyweights due to his incredible combination of power and speed.

As for the thread topic, i hate this one LOL. I can so easily see two scenario's, one where Tyson gets Sonny early and another where Sonn'y own immense power imposes itself and slows/stops Tysons forward progress. What a great match.

 

So you are making allowances and excuses for Foreman but not Tyson? Let us look at Tyson with the same concessions.

Tillis was the first opponent Tyson faced with any great experience. James resume is not unlike a who's who of the division for half a decade prior to facing Tyson. Weaver, Shavers, Thomas, Page, Witherspoon, Williams, Frazier, Coetzee and Biggs. He hadn't been stopped for almost 3 years even given such staunch opposition, and even in that one he slipped on water in his corner and Timmy pounced. Also, to match your Foreman concessions he had Tillis down in round 4.

Green was never ever legitimately (from punches) stopped in a ring, nuff said.

Smith was stopped in his debut and by Holmes via attrition. He had loads and loads of size over Tyson (as did Tucker) and fought for survival, again as did Tucker. It would be interesting to see Frazier vs such size advantages vs durable opponents, not that i'd knock Joe's stopping power.

Tucker wasn't stopped from concussion for another decade after Tyson when a shade off 40 years old vs a big puncher.

I think this puts things in a balanced perspective per Tyson vs these four. We could also look at the sheer amount of guys Tyson ko'd that had never been ko'd before, and those that hadn't been stopped after hitting their straps. Add to this how early he was pasting these guys and his power is simply irrefutable. He had class guys that had never been stopped out of there in a just few minutes.

 

Lets go negative on Frazier as per Tyson then. Bonavena went 25! rounds with him safely yet Ali not much later turned the trick on him. Where Joe was so effective getting them out was thru his sheer intensity as much as his excellent power. Tyson was stupid intense very early but did not sustain the pressure like Frazier did if he didn't axe them early.

Look at Holmes, he had a sensational stoppage record per title defenses (a record at one time i believe for heavies) yet he's no banger no matter which way it's spun. Holmes class and attrition near always come thru.

 

Liston was slow as fuk......... And he knocked out little men like folley/patterson/ whitehurst /machen all these guys were really cruiserweights................mike tyson wasnt a cruiserweight........i think punch 4 punch liston hits harder than tyson.......but when mike throws 3 punch combinations.....liston gets knocked out.......

 

Tyson wins this. Sonny would have trouble catching Tyson flush with all of the bobbing and weaving. (Liston had some trouble catching Floyd at first due to this) And then Tyson would unload with a right hand to the kidney followed up by a right uppercut, and Liston would have to be scraped off the canvas. Tyson would just be too fast for Liston, imo.

 

Tyson Tyson Tyson!

 

Very nice points McGrain, very convincing. Close Thread :hat

 

Tillis fight was Tyson at 19 and Tyson still hadn't gone past 6 rounds. He was still worried about his stamina. Green fight; true, he went the distance in that fight but look how he fought. Look at his confidence. And look what Green had to do in order to survive. UD win for Tyson. Somehow when Tyson wins a UD it sucks. If Ali were to do it it would be fantastic.
Tucker went for survival as well. And all 3 moved away to keep the hell out of the way of Tyson. Tyson, again, UD win over Tucker.

Liston is not coming to survive after he takes some shots. He is coming to win. He is also not as fast as either of those fighters on their feet or hand. And Liston is also smaller than both Green and Tucker height wise. Tillis was slightly taller but he was a mover and a clincher.


We can use some fights Liston also had trouble with as well if you like. Eddie Machen wasn't exactly an easy fight for Sonny.

Everybody had a greater reach advantage than Tyson.
Tyson used timing and out-jabbed much taller fighters with a longer reach.
Carl Williams had something like an 84 1/2 inch reach. How did that turn out for him?
Not saying its the same as Liston but Williams did have a jab and did have that reach. Tyson was trained to deal with it at his best.

Patterson: Patterson could have had any style he wanted...he was still a blown-up MW with a chin not solid enough for someone like Liston.
Maybe nerves played a role as well.

Liston was also 6'0+. Not much taller than Tyson. Tyson's jab and other combinations might actually be more affective against fighters closer to his height. Less reaching.

Liston was a skilled boxer.
Tyson is as well but that tends to get over-looked.