Sonny Liston Children?

Do you know anything about Gandhi ?

I don't know much but his politics are perhaps not what we might think.
It's probably best to distrust and even dislike all politicians though.
He supported the oppression of the black Africans while he was there in his early career. I always though that was at odds with his enduring image as a freedom fighter against racist imperialism.

And, he was apparently a bit of a pervert, sleeping in a bed full of naked girls, including a niece, to test his celibacy.

 

Of course they are believable. It's a matter of record that he got another teenaged/underage girl pregnant, and at first denied the child was his, a child he has now admitted to.

YES, she could have been an opportunist.
Or she could have just been a badly abused young woman, telling the truth, but whose life was in a mess and was fighting against a very powerful opponent.
Who knows ?
But it is ridiculous to say "they aren't believable".

Your hero-worship and rosy-coloured view of your idol is potentially dangerous. You're not alone, and it's a problem in this world that too many people have heroes and idols who can do no wrong in their eyes.
That's partly why celebrities have been running around r*aping women and kids for decades now, and the victims have been intimidated and too afraid to mention it, and slandered and persecuted if they come forward.

I'm not about to put Muhammad Ali in the same category as Bill Cosby, but your "fan attitude" seems very similar to those who have defended Cosby over the years.
The idea that you KNOW he's a "good character" because he interacts so warmly with the kids, and your flippant dismissal or some very dishonourable things that he certainly did do and say.

 

My point exactly. :deal


MLK, Kennedy, FDR, Lincoln, Mother Theresa. You can criticize any one of these people. If your goal is to find fault in human beings, you will succeed 100% of the time.

 

No my friend. The real danger is when we accuse other people of doing things they may not have done. It's one of the worst things you can do to other people, sans physically harming them.

We live in a witch hunt culture. Not just with celebs. As soon as somebody is accused of anything, we pick up our pitchforks and torches.

So yes. I'm not going to judge Ali based on what some girl with a baby who may have been desperate said. I'm going to judge him on what I know, which is his personality, the way I see him treat others, and the first hand accounts from my family who was with him on daily basis, and saw him touch the hearts of people in the street every day.


For every girl he probably did not ****, there are literally tens of thousands of people that he had personal interactions with, who's hearts he touched.

So you can call it rosy colored glasses. But when I see a man who for 30 years straight does one good deed after another on an hourly basis, then yeah, I'm going to think highly of that selfless person.

 

The case was dropped because the law at the time said she couldn't press charges for assaulting her as a minor because she wasn't a minor anymore. And she kept appealing, and kept losing, because they said she wasn't a minor anymore.

It was dropped after five years, because no one would hear her case because she was an adult. So she didn't show up to court one time, and it was dropped.

That's the definition of a powerful person destroying someone with no means at all.

If that law still stood, no priests would've been charged with crimes for molesting children in the Catholic church scandal because practically none of them were still minors.

She was 12. She was living at Deer Lake. On her child's birth certificate, Lana Shabazz's cabin address at Deer Lake is listed as her residence.

Yes, those opportunistic 12 and 13-year-olds who live on a married guy's property and have *** with him ... and have his kid who he pays for ... until the married guy's wife Veronica (WHO IRONICALLY WAS ALSO TEENAGER HE GOT PREGNANT WHILE HE WAS MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE) finds out about it.

Yes, that damn child opportunist.

What a ****ing awful thing to say.

And they aren't believable? Ali got a 16-year-old pregnant while he was married to Belinda. Ali got Laila Ali's 19-year-old mom pregnant at the Joe Bugner fight.

How many teenagers did the middle-aged millionaire have to get pregnant for you to find it believable?

Jesus. :roll:

That's one reason why Malcolm X broke with Elijah Muhammad. Because Elijah Muhammad was getting very young teenage girls pregnant. Ali even brought the child he had with the 16-year-old to Elijah Muhammad, and Elijah Muhammad thought it was great and convinced Ali's wife, Belinda, to accept the teenager and the child.

But none of that is believable to you, either, I'm guessing. Even though that's well-documented by all involved.

 

Some people have a lot of sins they need to make up for.

Since I liked you before this thread, I'm going to bow out before I don't anymore.

Please don't call a middle-school-aged child that a multimillionaire 33-year-old married man ... and serial bygamist and in today's world a PEDOPHILE ... got pregnant an opportunist again.

It's not a good position to take. No matter how nice the guy with Parkinson's seems today.

 

If what you're saying is true, that is terrible.

I don't believe in every unsubstantiated accusation levied at every person. There are way too many questions left unanswered before I could even bring my mind to think of such things about people. There are contradictions, and red flags amuck. But I don't even want to get into it. It's too gross of an idea to entertain.

I rely on first hand experiences. Which is that Ali was one of the most selfless, nicest, and kindest people in history. That he was a marvelous athlete, a very funny person, a family man, and that he brought life into every room he walked into.

That stuff is 100% fact ^. And I won't let some crazy accusations creep into my judgement of him.

 

Wow! You do not appear to be someone who lets facts get in the way of your opinions. Your level of hero worship goes from childish to disturbing when demonizing a young victim of ***ual abuse.

 

Facts? Which ones? Like the fact that the case was dropped, and not a lawyer in the world cashed in on this?

Or the fact that not a single person here knows if it's true or not?

Which facts?

 

Doublechin set the background pretty clearly. I am sure you can verify them. Mark Kram published a book discussing what happened. Whether you choose to verify or ignore it is your perogative but opting to attack the child victim is reprehensible.

 

What? How did I attack her?

 

You suggested a 12 year victim was the opportunist.

 

Yes, three of them were politicians, US presidents. Politicians are generally somewhat psychopathic/sociopathic personalities, driven by ego and power crazed. I don't know why you would hold those particular people up as examples.
These aren't ordinary people.

Mother Theresa, i don't know much about. But as far as agents and missionaries of organized religion go, in general, there's A LOT to be critical of. I don't have time to bash the Catholic church and their world view, or even investiagte it.

MLK, on a personal level may have done bad things, and he too was in part a politician and a religious leader so he was tainted by that world too, as we all are, to some extent.
But I believe his good outweighs his bad. Just for the message that he gave.
His message was clear, and I agree with it.

Yes, but that's not the issue.
You are the one who is making the positive statements "Ali obviously would never have done ...." etc.
"He's obviously a good man" etc.

I, on the other hand, accept that I DON'T KNOW. I don't know the man, I don't know what he would have done and what he did.

So what?
Just because someone is known to have done good things and "touched hearts" doesn't exclude the possibility that they did bad things, perhaps a lot of bad things and very bad things.

So what ?
For every kid that Jimmy Savile molested, for every woman that Bill Cosby drugged and ra*ped, their were probably hundreds of people they helped with charity and good work and personal interactions of a good sort.
Al Capone, the Kray Twins, the list goes on.

Fair enough. Think highly of whoever you like.
But don't pretend you know the limits of what they did, or were capable of. :good

 

Stop. I suggested that an 18 year old MIGHT be an opportunist.

She was an adult when she abandoned her child for drugs.

 

This is my point. You can vilify any human being if that's your objective.

You're missing my point. I don't know if the allegations are true, and imo they most likely aren't. So I can't use it to judge him.

I do know his countless great deeds did happen. And I can use that to judge him.


I don't know much about Cosby, but the allegations against him are starting to fall apart. We need to be careful about starting a witch hunt after every allegation. We as in society.

I've experienced people close to me being wrongfully accused. It's terrible. It's the worst thing in the world. There are people on Death Row who get exonerated from DNA tests all the time. An accusation is not equal to reality, let alone a conviction.

And just as you need to slow your roll on calling Cosby a ******, you should proceed with even more caution before letting this accusation effect your judgement on Ali. It's not fair to him or yourself.