Sonny Liston from the Cleveland Williams fights is the best heavyweight in history.

John I can't believe you haven't seen to much about this fight. I bring it up literally every other day whenever I inevitably have to defend Williams.

 

I never made the claim he'd be a champ in "any era". I was disputing your statement, that "in no universe would Cleveland be champion".

 

Agree with everything in this assesment

 

Fair enough

 

@JohnThomas1

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76953678/the-charlotte-news/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/50880006/the-bend-bulletin/ "Williams, the No. 5 contender, felt he had turned in an upset Most of the crowd of 10,000, partial perhaps to the hometown favorite, and one judge agreed. The referee and one judge scored the fight a draw and the second judge gave Williams a three - point edge."

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996351/the-fresno-bee/ Williams nearly floors Machen here.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996756/the-sacramento-bee/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/50880006/the-bend-bulletin/

Also iirc, AP also scored the fight for Williams 98-96 but I can no longer find my source, so don't quote me on that.

 

Where is Choklab?

 

I think you've put forward newspaper clippings but wasn't sure they were about this one

Will find them later.

 

I wonder what would have happened if Cleveland Big Cat Williams had not been shot by that Texas State Trooper on Nov 30 1964, and had gone on to fight that rubber match against Ernie Terrell for the vacant WBA title on March 5 1965? Would the Big Cat have been up to the task, and win a title?

 

I just tagged you in a post where I've linked multiple descriptions, quotes, and pictures regarding the fight.

 

Ok so i thought we'd done this one before per the above. Back in January in this thread -

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...60-vs-oscar-ringo-bonavena-1970.662429/page-5

Pretty sure you didn't find it?

 

Will look now mate.

 

Yes there's nothing at all in that suggesting "most thought" Williams won which was as i thought.

Admittedly it's rather unlucky that 2 draws and a win on the cards doesn't get you a win.

 

Agreed. Williams was a very good fighter.

Watching the Williams Liston I fight again...anyone ever notice what a massive, thick back Liston had? His lat muscles were really built, probably didn't hurt to have such development when punching hard.

It's interesting to watch how the tide turns in this fight, Liston started slow and got hit one too many times. But he was like slow, inexorable Death.

 

Whenever Chok isn't here for a Williams thread, revert back to these. It'll be like you haven't missed a thing.

 

I think he would've beaten Terrell and perhaps stopped him in the championship rounds judging by the end of their 2nd bout with Terrell tiring badly and holding on to Williams for dear life. He notches a couple successful defenses against Chuvalo, Jones, MAYBE Machen. That's a tough one. After their bout, Machen had a mental breakdown, attempted to off-himself and was committed to a mental asylum. Upon his return, he wasn't nearly the same fighter. I think this Machen loses. However, if Machen came back as he was, I see him building a game-plan based upon his first bout with Williams, and succeeding on implementing it, and making adjustments to score a close UD over Williams.