Sonny Liston from the Cleveland Williams fights is the best heavyweight in history.

All due respect John, I disagree newspapers.com/clip/50880006/the-bend-bulletin/ "Williams, the No. 5 contender, felt he had turned in an upset Most of the crowd of 10,000, partial perhaps to the hometown favorite, and one judge agreed. The referee and one judge scored the fight a draw and the second judge gave Williams a three - point edge."

Also how did you find the other links I posted? Were they of any value to you?

 

Then possibly the winner faces off against Muhammad Ali in 1967, before the layoff..

 

Neither Big Cat, nor Machen (or anybody else imho) are beating Ali. Though I think Williams puts on a much better performance now that he's not a (literally) shot shell of himself. I think it would somewhat resemble the aforementioned bout with Machen, though with Williams obviously not having nearly as much success (though he'll have his moments) and being stopped.

 

I think Cleve could have beat his fair share of fighters through many of the strongest decades. I would favor him over many fighters from the 60s-90s. For instance:

60s: Zora Folley
70s: Earnie Shavers
80s: just about anybody other than Holmes and Tyson
90s: Tommy Morrison

 

LOL no.

 

Well the fighter always believes he won. Machen would have thought he won too. Of course the majority of the crown were going to favor Williams because he was the hometown fighter. The "partial perhaps" is a dead giveaway and understated.

The only judge out of three that scored a winner did give it to Cleve but a counterargument could be that he was swayed by the hometown crowd and even venture so far as speculating that the others may have been as well. The home fighter did quite well in those days and many thereafter. I'm not saying it happened but it's not out of the question if speculation is going to be embraced.

I see nothing there indicating Williams was ripped off and I've never read anything along those lines ever.

Yes they indicate a close fight but again don't fit the narrative i asked about. Williams actually said he thought it close going into the 10th and the articles make it clear Machen won the tenth as it was his best round of the fight.

What they actually do is make it clear this was an extremely close fight and a draw was a fair verdict. One article describes it as a cautious and dull affair too in a fight where one obviously needed to shine in order to fight for the title.

So for me no controversy and a fair verdict.

 

Liston isn't the best ever, though he's certainly among the best HWs at his peak.

Williams wouldn't win a title in most eras. As others said, I can see him beating old Willard, Carnera, Braddock, maybe Burns as well but that's it. I definitely don't favor him over other champions.

 

Williams was a footnote.

 

Liston was in my opinion the only heavyweight who convincingly dominated and beat a prime Cleveland Williams.
The big cat was actually much better than i thought he was.
People talks a lot about his punching power (jack O'halloran, who shared the ring with Ron lyle, Mac Foster and George Formean claimed nobody hit him harder than Williams!!!) But sadly, we can't say the same thing about his early record and résume.
He did have a good start before losing to sylvester jones on point in "4 rounds" fight, a loss he actually avenged by Knocking the same man out in the rematch!
And at only 20 years old, they put him in against a very small carbon copy of him named bob starrfield (hard puncher with an agressive style and a not so good chin) . Eventhough Williams was the much, MUCH MUCH bigger fighter, bob had a waaaaaaayyy greater advantage in experience.
But when he came back in 1956, until his shooting by the police in 1964, the prime Clev was a pretty impressive slugger. with his thunderous power, and great physique, he stalked his prey with very fluid movement and good hand speed.
He scored several good wins over Ernie terrell (who was brutally stopped in the first fight but would go on to beat him in the remacth by a very questionable split decison) sonny banks, dik Richardson,Wayne bethea, alex mitef and young jack johnson.
Definitely a great win for sonny.

 

One of the best but not the best.

 

I would feel that I had got my moneys worth, if I had bought a ticket for that fight.

 

Who wouldn't?

 

Cleveland Williams tended to look unbeatable until he got hit. I don't think he was very strong mentally.

 

I thought he displayed tremendous mental strength in his bouts with Liston, and Satterfield, among others (including Curly Lee). I disagree but I respect your opinion, and would like to hear more on this. You are not the first person who thought this way regarding Williams.

 

Not a chance