Sonny Liston had a great chin

I actually said that Williams never hit him with a clean, solid shot, which is a fact. The hard punches either missed, were blocked or didn't land flush. This fight would have been relevant if and only if he'd taken a bomb flush on the jaw and survived. There are countless fighters who've been in with big punchers and taken something. It doesn't mean they have great chins.

 

The only punch that might be considered testing to the chin of a championship quality fighter would be that at 1:55. The others are nothing special.

You're digging way too deep to find evidence for Liston here. For example, at 3:48 and 8:00 in the following video, Pastor gets hit with hard right hands to the side of the head. Is this evidence that Pastor had a great chin? Of course not. To have proof of possessing a great chin you need to consistently take hard shots and survive them. One combination which may or may not have landed hard off a big puncher is not enough.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn0u-k9lpsw[/ame]

 

It is in my original sense of a really good, meaty blow to the jaw, it is a fact, though admittedly it was a hard punch. The whole point of my statement (and this thread) was looking at Liston's chin and how the Williams fight tested it; it wasn't a testing shot in that way.

Hard punches, sure - but they didn't land cleanly.

What I mean is this: We seem to be scouring over the footage in massive detail to see if we can spot Liston being hit by a guy with power once or twice. Nobody would do that to any other fighter and put it up as evidence of them having a great chin. I'm sure pretty much every fighter has taken shots like that at some point. (It's weird what affects you and what doesn't in the ring.) A great chin needs to be proven consistently in taking big shots from big punchers.

I don't have anything aginst Liston. I rate him highly. But this whole "oh he cleaned out an era" "oh he had the most dominant wins ever" "oh he beat all styles" together with the sweeping-under-the-rug of any evidence against his heart and chin in favour of much more tenuous evidence for it - it's over-the-top. You could make these claims about most fighters.

 

Look, if you define the statement "It is snowing right now" as "It is not snowing right now", then it is snowing right now. You can define a clean shot or a hard shot however you want - with high standards requiring the punch to be an absolute bomb flush on the chin, or with low standards requiring the punch to generally connect and generally make some impact - and each definition will lead you to different conclusions concerning whether Liston was hit with a clean shot or a hard shot respectively. For the purposes of this thread, I intended a clean hard shot quite stringently - to constitute something that would demonstrate a great chin (the reason being that that is the whole ****ing point of the thread). That underlying point still stands, no matter how much you want to indulge in semantics because you can't find anything else to disagree with me on. I'm not interested in anything else.

 

Clay/Ali had Liston hurt in the first fight, watch from 2:00 onwards (beautiful)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1igH5EFJfI4&feature=related[/ame]

 

You've distorted my statements. My exact statements were:

When you start using words like "really", that implies a degree of relativity about what you're talking about. (Maybe I should have said: Monzon NEVER got hit really hard; Williams never hit him with a really clean, solid shot.) Anyway, certainly, it draws attention to the fact that I was responding to something somebody else said, and questioning the degree of hardness or cleanness involved.

And I don't know why you think this is so important. We disagree on many things, but you only seem to pick out posts for semantic dissection.

 

Well said. I was thinking of that earlier actually.

 

Look at the flush pushes liston takes from clay in the first fight without coming close to going down. Proves the 2nd fight knockdown was a tank job(imo).

 

who was a notoriously underwhelming puncher

Punches like the ones that had him visibly wobbled, as shown above?