Sonny Liston had a great chin

People did attack for him for just that, as I said, but it was an inaccurate position, just like the one on his quality, also underwhelming to most contemporary observers.


As to his actual power and how it actually functioned in the ring, which is surely the relative point (unless you really are married to semantics), it was NOT underwhelming.

He hurt everyone he ever faced.

He knocked out some granite chinned fighters.

Between Liston and Bonavena he ended all but 2/12 fights on a stoppage including good chins. He could hit, he could hurt, no matter what the inaccurate perspective at the time was. He was not an underwhelming hitter. He was a fast, hard hitter who stopped most of his opponents.

 

I've never seen the Folley fight, but I have an interview with Rocky Marciano who was ringside. It seems Folley did absolutley clatter him, with uppercuts. Having just watched Folley polaxe Bonavena in round 8 of their first fight, those seem to be quite some punches to absorb.

However, no film...no film.

 

What about them? Do you mean, you don't think he hurt them? He did. Against Terrell, consistantly after round 6, and probably most of all in round 8 where my memory has him landing perhaps the best left hand of his career. Terrell finished the fight with a blood spot and supposedly a cut, swelling and unable to see out of one eye. I would say Ali hurt him, unquestionably.

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Chuvalo certainly was hurt in my memory, mid-way through the fight. I rememeber in commentary speculation as to why Ali hadn't pressed Chuvalo when he had him hurt, and his laziness being derided.

Against Jones, Ali landed good punches in both the ninth and the tenth that seemed at the very least to sheer Jones of both his legs and snap temporarily.

I don't know the Bugner fight. Perhaps he didn't hurt Bugner. Perhaps there are others he did not hurt (certainly Holmes is, as you say, a meaningless example). Regardless, Ali was certainly not an underwhelming puncher. I'm sure any of the many world class men he knocked out would agree.

EDIT: The Miami News: "His first jab raised a welt over Bugner's left eye. A left hand in that same round rocked his taller opponent. Not long afterwards, still in the first round, a straight right opened up a long cut over Bugner's left eye."

So, yeah, according to this other source, he did hurt Bugner.

You repaid the compliment I see. I will deal with yours now.

Why is this in any way contrary to anything i've said?

And how do you think he achieves these knockouts on accumilation?

This is about as vague as can be, but it is possible to see, on film, some fighters shaking off and walking through most of Ike Williams's punches, too. Do you see this as having some relevance to this discussion? I see none. Perhaps if you were talking to someone who was claiming Ali was a massive concussive puncher.

I would say less sloppy than George Foreman.

I would say fewer arm punches than Vitali Kiltschko.

He rarely got power behind his shots?

Well. What can I say to that but "I disagree". Additionally, for the record, even if it was true, it wouldn't really matter. If Ali didn't get a lot of power behind many of his punches, but was capable of getting good power behind some shots sometimes (which obviously you must conceed) my original point would still stand. So i'd say, irrelevant.

But KO wins over fighters like Bonavana and Foreman are not. I'm aware of the argument that both of these men were exhausted. I'm sure they were. I'm also sure the reason they were stopped was less to do with this and more to do with the 215lb athlete repeatedly smashing them in the head.



Ali was not an "underwhelming puncher", unless you mean in the sense that his critics were underwhelmed by his punching power before he came to the title. Indeed, it is possible to hear a commentary team speculate, against either Chuvalo or Quarry, as to whether or not he still had that "knockout punch" he had carried in his original championship years.

 

I think he "hurt" him in the sense you are describing in round 8.

Fighters can be hurt and still "walk through everything determinedly". In fact it is unlikely you would remember this determination unless the punches he was walking through were hurtful.

In round ten he looks momentarily lost to me.

If a poster isn't familiar with a given fight but has a primary source, I love it when they use that primary source to increase understanding. I love primary sources. I suppose looking at it from your point of view it is indeed being used to "prop up" a "case". From my point of view, it's information I haven't previously seen. Good.

As to the source, you have watcehd the fight on film; you do not see Bugner was hurt. Someone else sitting ringisde thought that he was hurt, perhaps by the two punches landed on three minutes? Why do you assume that your opinion, rendered watching a film on YouTube, is superior to that of a reporter who is in the stadium?

I didn't see Bugner particularly hurt there, though I don't think he particularly liked those punches. Broadly speaking, i'd conceed the point to you. If you were sitting twelve feet from the punches when they landed, heard the noise that Bugner made, heard him tell his cornerman he was hurt, or heard/saw whatever it was that made the eyeball witness write that Bugner was hurt, you would likely feel differently - just like he did. I won't be throwing out that new information as quickly as you.

But, things being what they are, forget it, it's a case-proper after all, and who has room for these differing points of view.

Yes. Do we now deduce that Ali is a better puncher than Frazier? Or not? He stopped Bonavena with, at a guess, fewer punchers than Frazier. This is stuck on now, right? Or not?

Yes. Do we now deduce that Evander Holyfield is a better puncher than Tyson? This equation says that, yes, with Buster having walked through Tyson's best for longer than he was able to standup to Holyfield? I must say these truisms of yours are throwing up some surprising results...

By "other evidence" do you mean a lower KO% than Muhammad Ali? Or maybe fewer title fights won by KO than Muhammad Ali? Do you mean because ne knocked a smaller percentage of his ranked opponets out than Muhammad Ali? Or...what? Let me guess. Him scoring knockouts on film? What do you make of the fact that most of these are seen to be by accumilation (like Muhammad Ali)?

Every single punch Ali ever threw was not a "slappy arm punch". When he hit with real power he hurt people. That is my final word on this particular matter, it doens't matter than he can be seen on film throwing lazy punches, at all for the purposes of this argument. It's the hard punches he DOES throw that are under examination.

I'm struggling now. Nobody is saying Ali is a "massive one-punch hitter". Okay?

So you think that Bonavane and Foreman being stopped by Ali is MORE to do with their tiredness than the punches they are taking? Almost like they are fainting?

Well, we'll agree to disagree. I think the punches were "much more the reason".

Some are, some aren't. But I agree with you that they aren't a reliable source for definitive intel - what I do think, however, is that they are a good indication as to how a fighter was generally percieved in the industry. They are good for picking up an inside line. The inside line on Ali was that he can hit.



And it still is. Ali is not a huge knock-out artist, but he's a hurtful puncher who damages when he lands, consistantly. It's hard for me to imagine finding another person who would disagree with that statement, or one who would agree with you that he was an "hugely underwhelming puncher", if you used a word other than "hugely", I apologise in advance.