Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Shook Sonny's hand when he was training for the 2nd Clay/Ali fight in 1964 in Plymouth Ma.

 

By all accounts Sonny was in the shape of his life prior to the fight being postponed. Got into that great of shape knowing he was going in the tank? Listons wife stated she knew nothing of any fix and if Sonny made a ton of money off a dive she never saw it. Cus Damato was at ringside for the fight and stated that Liston was cleanly koed by a punch he did not see coming. Ali beat Liston easily in fight 1. No need to fix a second fight. Liston was that much older and Ali was that much better. Classic example of an up in coming all time great outfighting a very much aging champion.

 

Joe Louis, Gene Tunney, Floyd Patterson and George Chuvalo were all at ringside and said it was definitely a dive.

I agree with their analyses.

 

Damato, Fleischer, Dundee and a host of others disagree. In fact the fight WAS investigated...did you know that? Result...no evidence of a fix whatsoever. Add to this the fight was broken down frame by frame looking for evidence that it was fixed....want to know the conclusion? Liston was koed by a punch he never saw coming as he was stepping forward. You can yell conspiracy all you want but conspiracies are for the uneducated. Fight was investigated both formally and technically and the conclusions were as described.

 

I don't believe you.
How can a fix be detected by breaking the film down frame by frame? It can't be.

The main thing that proves you don't know what you're saying is this:

How do you know whether he saw it coming or not? You don't.

Liston wasn't KO'd. To be KO'd a man has to be down for a count of 10. There was no count. At most, he was knocked down. Walcott stopped the fight in error.

I doubt if you've seen the fight from what you write. Go watch it. You can find it on YouTube.

 

good point. why would liston get in the best shape of his life for the rematch if he was taking a dive in the first round. clown central

 

Good post,Houdini. One of the few on this bout that contain a well balanced common sense perspective.

 

Ali thought Liston took a dive, that's why he screamed at him to get up and fight.

 

Billb your an idiot.

The count is made by the timekeeper as well as the ref. The fight was stopped after Sonny got up because Liston was on the canvas for more than 10 seconds so yes he was in fact knocked out.

Yes the fight was officially investigated and no fix was determined. That's the official verdict. No fight in boxing history was investigated more closely than this match at least in the hwt division.

Yes the fight was analyzed frame by frame and yes those that published there findings concluded no fix and that Liston was koed by a punch he never saw coming as he was stepping foreword. In fact during this analysis it was shown that Listons lead foot as he was stepping foreword was lifted off the canvas by the force of Alis right hand.

So there is an official investigation and an expert analysis of the fight film both concluding no fix was involved. But let's hear your uneducated uninformed disbelief of the facts. Oh...once again...your an idiot.

 

Article by Sports Illustrated writer from ringside...

Muhammad Ali, born Cassius Clay, retained the heavyweight championship of the world by knocking out Sonny Liston with a perfectly valid, stunning right-hand punch to the side of the head (page 48), and he won without benefit of a fix.

Although it is impossible ever to discount the possibility of a fix because of boxing's still-too-intimate connection with the underworld, there is no shred of evidence or plausibility to support the suggestion that this was anything but an honest fight, as was the previous Clay-Liston fight in Miami Beach. Today the big money is in television—not betting.

The knockout punch itself was thrown with the amazing speed that differentiates Clay from any other heavyweight. He leaned away from one of Liston's ponderous, pawing left jabs, planted his left foot solidly and whipped his right hand over Liston's left arm and into the side of Liston's jaw. The blow had so much force it lifted Liston's left foot, upon which most of his weight was resting, well off the canvas. It was also powerful enough to drop him instantly—first to his hands and knees and then over on his back. More than 17 seconds elapsed before Liston could flounder to his feet, still only partly conscious. Even some 30 seconds later, when Jersey Joe Walcott, the referee, finally stopped the fight after a wild flurry of inaccurate punches by the almost-hysterical Clay, Liston was staggering drunkenly and had to be led to his corner by Trainer Willie Reddish.

The knockout punch was only the third that the champion landed, but all of his blows were significant ones. He opened the fight by rushing across the ring and banging the surprised Liston with a hard right cross. Then, about 30 seconds before the end, he hit Liston with another strong right (see cover) that may have started Sonny's downfall.

"That shot shivered Liston," said Trainer Chicky Ferrara, who had been placed in Liston's corner by Manager Angelo Dundee to guard against a recurrence of the eye burning that had left Clay semiblind in the fifth round in Miami Beach. "He blinked his eyes three times, like he was trying to clear his head, and I looked at Willie Reddish. I could see Reddish looked sick because he knew his fighter was in trouble."

For the few qualified observers who had a clear view of the knockout punch, there was no doubt about its power. Immediately after it landed, Floyd Patterson, seated at ringside in the most advantageous position to see the blow, said, in answer to a direct question: "It was a perfect right hand." Jos� Torres, the light heavyweight champion, agreed. "A very strong right hand," he said. Indeed, for all those who had a good view of the punch—and, unfortunately, there could not have been more than 1,200—there was never any doubt as to the stunning power of the blow. it was perfectly delivered against an opponent who was moving toward it, so that the effect was of a head-on collision.

 

In any rules of boxing you want to use as a reference, the referee's count is the only one the downed fighter is expected to rely on. The referee's count is the only count that determines a knockout. The downed fighter must be given the opportunity to both hear and see the referee's count.

The referee does not start counting until the opponent retires to the farthermost neutral corner.

Walcott did not start a count on Liston, as Clay refused to go to a neutral corner.

There was no knockout because the referee never started a count.

Watch the fight and maybe you will be able to grasp what I am saying.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=94xSmDjedKw&NR=1