Sonny Liston, head to head GOAT

It's an opinion and you are entitled to it of course, and it's one I would share if Sonny beat more than three elite fighters who were all smaller and/or less durable than most ATG's or really overcame sterner opposition. Myself I prefer a more mentally reliable champion who showed more fortitude in tougher fights. For me, Sonny, whilst a very dangerous puncher, was not so difficult to hit. For examples watch his fights with Whitehurst and Williams. Even the ineptitude of 5'7" Westphal during albeit a very brief fight was able to find Sonnys chin and make him miss. Why not Frazier, Tyson and Rocky?

For me, I think of champions of greater longevity who stand better chances against Rocky, Tyson and Frazier like Lennox Lewis, Ali, Larry Holmes and I really don't think Sonny is so proven to be award such faith.

It's certainly how most boxing people who witnessed Sonny ringside consulted for ATG top ten lists must have felt during the decade or so that Sonny did not appear in top ten lists.

 

Yes Sonny was hated after the Ali fights. I imagine it was seen as damaging to boxing for Sonny to remain in the mainstream immediately after the debacle in Maine. After all, Allowances had been made over his background to get him a title fight in the first place all for him to quit against Ali and present a non effort in Maine. Yes, I get that angle. (Personally I think Walcott, Ali fleischer were more responsible for the resulting farce)

He went to Sweden to box guys until the dust settled then relaunched himself with Dick Sadler back in the Sates. Sonnys win over Henry Clark at that time was a great performance. Howard Cossell fawning all over Sonny in their ringside interview does not reflect the Universal hatred you talk of that would have eliminated Liston from ATG lists based on popularity. Howard was too much of a wh0re to popular opinion to present anything other than what was expected. Sonnys fight with Leotis Martin was also high profile, hard fought and old Sonny showed enough bravery in it to redeem his reputation.

I suspect Sonnys career ran its course. He was news worthy even in the end. I don't think it's possible that the outrage caused by the Ali fights was enough for fans to forget all about how invincible Sonny looked prior to it. If it had then I don't think his American relaunch could have been financially possible. I could be wrong but come 1971 -1978 enough dust had settled for Sonnys initial legacy to be appreciated fairly by those who lived through it. I struggle to see how he did not chart in ATG lists as prominently as he did after the internet.

 

I've already shown that Erskine wasn't. Here's the link again:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=vOscAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AWUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7283,3466138

As far as I know Archie McBride was never rated, let alone at the time he met Johansson. Cavicchi certainly gained a rating by winning the European title in 1955, but was dropped in early 1956, before the Johansson fight (it's just conceivable that he may have bobbed back up into the top 10 at some point after this - I don't have listings for every month).

 

It's got nothing to do with hating. Why does it have to be that because Sonny was not not recognised as an ATG by the people who lived through his times this has to do with hatred? This seems almost childish. Why can't it just be that they decided after initially looking potentially great Sonny wound up going 2-2 in title fights?

Champions do go in and out of vogue. That might be something to do with Listons absence from ATG lists. I don't think it's possible to be one of these two things-

1, A whole generation of boxing people missed the point.
2, Sonny Liston got better after his death.

So I get what happened. A new generation discovered a champion once different values and criteria were considered in evaluating what it takes to be an ATG champion. It conflicts with previous views.

I understand what you are saying. Your theory is the press of the times had influence on how Sonny was perceived at the time and it stayed with one generation . I am not pretending not to understand this idea.

Ali was not popular in America either. I am sure the press of his time had an impact on how he was perceived in the 1960s too. Perceptions changed during Alis career (rather than after it) and Ali was regarded a better ATG champion in the 1970s and a legend in his own lifetime. But then we saw Ali dig deep in fights and win.

Sonny Liston was a very interesting champion. He looked to become a great champion but ultimately disappointed going 2-2 in title fights. I imagine that has more to do with his absence from most ATG lists for 15 years or so after his retirement.

 

Back to that old nutmeg...
I have retracted that so many times. It was (as I have said) only ever against the Liston hype rather than Sonny himself. and more to do with the truth getting in the way of good story. Its so long ago, I need not repeat myself on that again. It was intended to rebalance what I thought was an over stating of the "Sonny the uncrowned champion" thing that people used to get carried away with, that Rocky ducked Sonny, that Cleveland Williams would have been a world beater and all that sort of stuff that nobody used to challenge much at that time.

They do now, and I have since been able to enjoy what a great fighter Sonny was without that kind of hype. Hype that did not stand up. I think history will and should remember Sonny as fighter who had it all, who had as much going for him as any great fighter potentially. And that ultimately because it was unfulfilled it is harder to assess than the many others who were able to fulfill their potential over a greater period of time. What continues to fascinate about the Liston chapter of boxing history is that we will never know.

 

Maybe get off your hobby horse? How about attacking George Foreman's record for a change? Oh wait. you've already done that to the point of excruciating boredom several times.

 

I would agree .

 

I don't see how reminding people during a debate (about Listons H2H prowess) that Liston was not always so highly regarded.

using ATG lists spanning a very long period to back this up cannot be seen as misleading.

Or asking that among modern top ten lists Sonny must be the only one who went 2-2 in title fights. Is that not allowed anymore? Are we to shut down on longstanding views and pretend they didn't happen because we don't like them anymore?

And yes, it is still okay to remark on how much more info younger fans can access once old wounds have healed. I just don't think why the contrasting older view has to be to do with hating. I think it could be to do with actual comparisons.

It can simply be to do with how one record measures up against another. Or how attitudes have changed regarding how important quality of opposition and longevity is.

If you look at my very first post on this thread it will tell you exactly where I stand on this. I really don't think you disagree with any of my points.

 

I just don't understand how people just can't admit that some boxer's wanted nothing to do with Liston. It took primetime Ali, the best heavy in history, to beat Sonny when he was no doubt past prime, prime probably a '59 Liston. People can't use perspective. A very similar analogy would be Dempsey Tunney. Are people really going to put a huge amount of importance of a prime 1919 Dempsey fighting Tunney in '26 and '27 ...

 

Liston got a lot of important fights before he was champion, if he was that avoided I don't think he would have got so many. Granted he did have to take tiny purses to get Williams,Harris and Foley into the ring. But sonny even fought a lot of rematches. Why were so many fighters keen for a second serving?

If we are talking about Sonny being avoided by the champion on his way up I have looked into this in great detail. Between contractual agreements on both the champions and Sonnys behalf then Sonny losing his license as leading contender for his "impersonating a police man" incident (in order for him and a freind to pick up a woman in a park) there wasn't a window much earlier than he got to challenge for the title. He was incarcerated for some of the mid 1950s too.

If we are talking of Sonny being avoided after he had already been champion then I imagine it was more difficult for the managers of prospects to want to risk blowing their investment against a guy who was on his way down. well isn't that always the case?