Sonny Liston, head to head GOAT

I know these things are U.S. centric, but I don't get some of those choices. Sonny over Lennox & Wlad? Tunney, John L, & Jeffries over Wlad?

 

I do make the point that Sonny was hated. in that I made the point that Johnson was also hated, chased out of the country, yet still rated highly over all because he had been so dominant even when he had the black championship in spite of this. Why do you think johnsons resume is not as effected as Sonnys even though jack was more hated? Was it johnsons longevity and better wins against better fighters that puts him higher? Why can't we credit earlier generations with the foresight to decide this?

 

When I said Liston was on most of the top ten lists I'd seen, I was referring mostly to the lists from this forum.



Here is the aggregate of the the classic forum's take on the top ten, compiled by Rumsfield, some time before you graced the forum:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...-time-heavyweights-poll-closed.150441/page-17

Eighty posters participated and fifty-two had Liston inside the top ten.

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Holmes
Lewis
Johnson
Foreman
Dempsey
Tyson
Frazier
Liston




But even aside from that, three very respected publications (SI, Ring and Boxing.com) have Liston in their top ten.

Sports Ilustrated

https://www.si.com/more-sports/photos/2009/11/18-1top-10-all-time-greatest-heavyweights

In no particular order:

Lennox Lewis
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali



The Ring
(List compiled by Thomas Hauser)

He used the aggregate of the following panelists' rankings:

Trainers: Teddy Atlas, Pat Burns, Virgil Hunter and Don Turner.

Matchmakers: Eric Bottjer, Don Chargin, Don Elbaum, Bobby Goodman, Ron Katz, Mike Marchionte, Russell Peltz and Bruce Trampler.

Media: Al Bernstein, Ron Borges, Gareth A Davies, Norm Frauenheim, Jerry Izenberg, Harold Lederman, Paulie Malignaggi, Dan Rafael and Michael Rosenthal

Historians: Craig Hamilton, Steve Lott, Don McRae, Bob Mee, Clay Moyle, Adam Pollack and Randy Roberts


Criteria:

"Great is a hard word to define, and greatness is subjective. It was up to each panelist to quantify greatness.

A fighter’s skill level is important. But so too is that fighter’s skill level within the context of his time.

How great was each fighter within his era? Was he the best of his era? Dominant in his era? How many other great heavyweights fought in his era? Great rivalries make great fighters. Did he fight the other great heavyweights of his time? Which elite fighters who were in their prime did he beat? One fight can go a long way toward defining a fighter’s legacy."

The list:

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Marciano
Holmes
Dempsey
Foreman
Frazier
Liston



Boxing.com

(List compiled by Matt McGrain)

in order...

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Lewis
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Liston
Johnson
Tyson

 

Your list is incomplete.

It should have included Erectile Dysfunction.

 

Liston is simply overrated by many, had any of the other champs quit like Liston they would most certainly not be considered a great fighter, how could they be!!!! But Liston was excellent , not great

 

I know nothing about that...


Cough cough.

 

But you did not specify that most top ten "on this forum" have Liston on it. You said Liston appeared on nearly every top ten you had "EVER" seen.

Therefore it is relevant to point out that Sonny was indeed entirely absent from top ten lists for a great many years. This continued largely until the internet generation by which time the criteria for great champions had changed as much as the face of heavyweight boxing had in general.

Sonny Liston was a 1960s champion. It is therefore as relevant to acknowledge how highly or lowly Sonny was regarded as an all timer during the 1960s and the 1970s and beyond.

 

And I did not need to specify "on this forum."

I said Liston appeared on nearly every top ten list I'd seen.

And this is a fact.

Every list I've ever seen includes lists from this forum.

You can point it out if you wish, but it doesn't detract from the veracity of what I posted.


My post was in response to the statement:

"It is one of the key reasons ATG and Liston are rarely mentioned in the same breath."

This statement is false.
Liston is frequently, almost universally mentioned, in ATG lists.

And that's why I said Liston appeared on nearly every top ten list I'd seen.

I was rebutting a false statement.

 

Some do not want to give Liston any credit it seems. Well Liston can't be an ATG because he quit on his stool. If Liston was prime in '59, maybe 5 years past his prime he faces the greatest heavy of all time and saves himself the beating again, or maybe his mob affiliations carried into the ring, who knows .. But to give Duran the free pass of quitting just because he accomplished more is hypocritical logic ..

 

Liston cleaned out all the "contenders" in his Division by the time he became champ. Then he bounced Patterson off the canvas twice. There was no contenders left. Ingo & Cooper wanted no part of Liston. Liston was aging, and didn't take Cassius Clay seriously in the first fight, and the second fight has really serous questions of it being legitimate....especially since the promotion Liston Group got cuts on Clay's first 3 defenses.

 

where is he in your all time heavy list??

 

Post the 2 Patterson victories..The Ring, & similar mags, had Liston in the lower Top Ten, behind your standard Louis, Jack Johnson, Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, Rocky, Fitz, Sullivan, Schmeling, Charles, etc List, AND moving up. But the 2 Clay/Ali debacles got him banned basically from consideration. Now with Ali moving at/close to the top, plus Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Lewis, Vit-Klit, now in the Top 12 list, I would put Liston at 10 or 11, assuming some of the smaller "old-timers" get moved down to weight divisions more their real size.