Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

All you have to do is look at the numbers to realize what a bonehead idea it is:

Willie Pastrano made $58,000 fighting Peralta. The fight lost money. Patterson made nearly that much fighting complete non-entity Santo Amonti.

Harold Johnson recieved $37,000 to defend against Pastrano who recieved his largest purse to date at $21,500

In losing to Torres Pastrano got over $100,000 but only after Torres agreed to almost nothing just to get a title shot and because it was part a big promotional double main event with Emile Griffith.

The month before Patterson made $170,000 for a non-title fight with Chuvalo.

The numbers speak for themselves there just wasnt enough money in the light heavyweight division.

 

No, I don't think that. Never even suggested it.

Ok. The general public thought a scary-looking black ex-convict who hadn't been to school and didn't talk much and boxed for a living ... was a stupid brute, an animal, an inferior human being with low intelligence.

People who actually knew him thought otherwise.

"these guys" ? There have been hundreds of boxing managers who have had success with one or two fighters. Dozens of them were simply ex-fighters, not one-in-a-million business brains. They coached the fighter and scouted, accepted or rejected opponents and haggled over purses, that's it, with some success. The talent of the fighter in question counted a lot toward the success.

It's naive to think that every successful managerial maneuver has to be carried out by some exceptional business genius or slick educated man.
Guys like Tommy Gallagher manage fighters. seriously.
Yank Durham was a philly gym guy, a war veteran, a former railroad worker, but was in charge of picking Frazier's opponents and steered him to the championship in very quick time.

Maybe Liston would have been a disaster as a manager. Maybe he could have done a decent job with one particular fighter.

You ignore the context of Liston's comment/offer.
After being battered twice inside 1 round by Sonny Liston, Patterson's career looked over, his reputation lay in tatters, the future looked bleak.

 

Patterson-Pastrano would have been one intrigueing fight, I'm telling you.

 

Here's a Liston interview.

He doesn't come across as at all stupid.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6OJkxv1pyM[/ame]

 

And theres no guarentee that Patterson-Pastrano would have been a hit. Pastrano made his biggest purse fighting Torres who was a feared contender coming up from middleweight only because Torres gave up most of his purse for the shot and only because it was matched with an attractive co feature.

You guys argue that Patterson's career was in tatters and that he had nowhere else to go which completely ignores the fact that in reality he made more than he ever would have at light heavyweight during the remainder of his career, fought for the title twice more, fought in several more meaningful heavyweight bouts, and likely made more money post championship than Liston did post championship. Its funny to even concieve of the argument whereby Liston becomes Patterson's guru and reinvigorates his career.

Your answer to this question is "the disgraced former heavyweight champ runs from the marquee division thats to tough for him after having fled the arena in a disguise and then goes down 20 pounds to fight Willie Pastrano, because he didnt look cowardly enough" Had Patterson done that he would he would confirmed everything those in the press hostile to him had been saying. That he was a coward and quitter with no heart who ducked challenges and fought weaker competition.

Instead Patterson stayed in the heavyweight divisions and like I said before gained a measure of redemption, made a fortune, and retired a highly respected elder statesman of the heavyweight division. You wanna argue he made the wrong move, or that Liston would have handled him any better? Why are we having this discussion, its ludicrous.

Some interview posted on youtube which is heavily and obviously edited is not going to make me change my mind. Find the press conference when they announced the postponement of the rematch with Ali and he couldnt string two words together, that was televised. There was also the one where he tried to save face after quitting to Ali in the first fight by saying he injured his shoulder. Not a particularly flattering event either. There were plenty more.

You keep on throwing these names out of guys who are supposedly morons that were successful managers and yet they have actually managed fighters. Liston never once managed anyone and yet for some reason you think hes just going to step into the role and work wonders on Patterson? Why? I guess if you think Patterson was lightning in a bottle that a barnyard pig could have had success with him then I can see why you think Liston might as well. But, you say Pattersons career was in tatters, which would imply he would need someone with some special acumen to resurrect it. Then buy in to some hair brained idea of him dropping down to light heavyweight, taking less money, possibly weakening himself, and rolling the dice.

I think he did just fine with those tatters. Within a year he had won a convincing decision over a guy many claimed he had ducked. Six months later he won a fat purse, fight of the year, and a shot at the championship in a showcase fight with Chuvalo. By the end of the year he was challenging for the title again as number one contender. After that debacle his career was once again in "tatters" and yet he still managed to have some meaningful fights including a disputed decision loss for the championship which could have gone the other way and if it had would have made him the first three time heavyweight champion in history.

In reality for Ten years after his career was being written off and that genius Sonny Liston would have him drop down to fight at light heavyweight he had a remarkably successful career. Its hard to argue with that. At that point Patterson had little to prove. From 1963 his legacy was essentially set and the rest was gravvy. Rich gravvy because he made a lot of money and thats what fighters are in the business for, not just winning titles which wouldnt be a given at light heavyweight.

 

I've always been weary of the Smaller Heavyweights dropping down in weight after being a HW for so long. They just aren't used to the speed and head movement/movement that the lighter weights have.

Perfect example is Chris Byrd. He thrived off making the bigger slower fighters miss him with his movement, drops down to Light Heavyweight and gets destroyed by a very quick fighter that he was not used to seeing. I strongly discourage small Hw's from going too far down in weight after being in the weight class for so long. Cruiser weight is fine.

 

"Had" to go to Sweden? This is boxing, you go where the money is. The money was in Europe, as Liston and Ali later found out as well. It certainly was not in the light heavyweight division.

Dick made $100,000 to fight Bob Foster but only after Foster gave up $21,000 of his own money for that purse.

Foster made $109,000 for Finnegan, which was a huge purse for him and he had to travel to get it which you seem to hold against fighters.

He made less than $50,000 for Kendall.

He made $125,000 for Ali, the biggest purse of his career to that point for a non title heavyweight fight.

To give a comparison he was offered $28,000 for a rematch with Mark Tessman, more than he made for the first fight.

Another of Fosters larger purses was the $70,000 he made for Mike Quarry.

He earned about $25,000 for Ray Anderson.

He earned $50,000 for his unification with Rondon.

He was paid $75,000 for his first fight with Fourie and $200,000 for Fourie, again having to travel to get it. This was the largest purse of Foster's career by far (which would be tied in his next fight against Ahumada) and of course this was after Patterson had retired.

Floyd Patterson made $110,000 to fight Eddie Machen in a 1964 non title bout when his career was "in tatters".

You can follow the money easily and see that during Patterson's career there was no incentive to go through the process of dropping weight and weakening yourself. The only way he would benefit was by picking up a title which wasnt worth a whole lot of money.

Foster would have loved to have been able to pack on enough weight to make him an effective heavyweight because he always made more money there. Its no secret why nearly every light heavyweight champion has tried to move up to heavyweight historically, it has a lot less to do with glory and lot more to do with a lot more money.

 

So he should just shoot himself in the foot as far as earnings go? Its prizefighting not legacyfighting.

Besides, by 1963 Floyd was also already the youngest and the only two time heavyweight champion and an Olympic Gold Medalist.

The majority of fighters faced with the possibility of their career hitting a brick wall choose feathering their nest over worthless trinkets and platitudes every time.

 

Different eras Anthony! Your obvious nut-hugging on the Klit boys, among others, is flawed. In the 50's and early 60's they wouldn't have been the beefcakes they are now and Sonny may well have been even more chiseled in the 21st century. I've seen the Klit's get that deer in the headlights look when they're hurt and all things being equal Sonny would have reached them and hurt them IMHO. My $0.02

 

I'm growing sick and tired of the "Patterson could have stayed at LH" BS! He was 182-83 against Archie. He had simply grown out of the LHW division and could not go back...EVER. Unless he hit the steam room every week losing all his natural bulk and power. He may have been a better fighter AFTER the Liston losses and how many fighters can you say that about in history after losing their title! As a 'Cruiserweight' he may have been the best but that wasn't created then. But then all the other weight classes that have been created every 3 or 4 pounds weren't around either. Boxing shot it's own self in the foot which is why the UFC crap is so popular now.
Different eras matter! Had Floyd been 10 years younger he would have been a top dog in the 70's.
His shortcomings as a heavy had more to do with his inner demons than the opponents placed in front of him.
I don't think we'll ever see another 190+ poundish fighter with more charisma and tools than Patterson. Once again...think ERAS!
Get off his back folks!