Sonny Liston in the 70s

He beats everyone except for Holmes and maybe Foreman too. I'm not completely confident that the slower Ali of the 70s can emulate the same successes he did against Sonny in his prime.

 

A prime Sonny beats more of the 1970s crop than he loses to. Norton,Frazier,Quarry,Shavers,Lyle et al all lose to him.
George Foreman is a pick 'em fight. Will have to think about it.
Sonny loses to the best 70s version of Ali and Holmes.

 

If it's a prime Sonny, then yes, he beats everybody in the 70s.

 

I don't think 70s Ali beats peak Liston either but he was definitely better than prime Holmes imo.

 

If he's in his prime for all fights, he wins all of them. Unfortunately that's an impossibility. Holmes was not as good a boxer as 60s Ali and rarely outboxed his opponents like Ali did. He usually had to get dirty and fight in the trenches.

 

It's hardly absurd to think Liston could well end up on top.

 

In one-offs he certainly could. Hell I'd even favor him (though Ali and Foreman would make me quite nervous) but as in real life, I feel like he loses motivation after winning the title.

I just rewatched TFOTC, and I have to say I think even that Ali was better than prime Holmes. Faster, hit harder (when he sat down on his punches), and displayed superior stamina against Frazier than I think Holmes would have.

 

With such a dangerous division he may not switch off

Another angle too is that he wouldn't have to wait so long to get his shot in the 70's. Perhaps if he got his shot earlier he'd be fresher and maintain form for longer. He'd beaten, dare i say, a "swag" of contenders prior to Patterson.

So i'm not one to take it 100% for granted that anytime he wins a title he switches off. I mean he might, but circumstances can be very different as i attempted to highlight in my two scenarios.

I would agree Ali at his very best post exile was a little bit better than Larry which is certainly saying something.

 

Holmes also like Holyfield (though to a lesser degree) had a very dangerous tendency to slug it out especially when hurt. He does that against Liston (and he WILL get hurt). He's toast imo. Larry's best bet is to try to take Liston late and tire him out but from what I've seen in their respective late rounds (granted Liston never went 15 like Holmes did), Liston oddly enough may have the endurance advantage in his corner in this bout judging by the relative lack of fatigue on his part as seen in his bouts against Machen and Whitehurst. I honestly don't think Holmes looked near as good at the 12 round mark though granted, Machen and Whitehurst hardly took it to you like Norton would have not that he'd have a chance to against Liston but I digress.

 

Fair post. Holmes was known for his endurance but as you say Liston at his best had no problems that's for sure. Holmes would be mobile early but he'd plant his feet at various times and that's when Liston's chances would come. Not that he'd be out of the fight in the interim with that reach, jab and skill of his. A great matchup.

 

Definitely, John. Good as he was he's not coming out as number 1.

 

For Foreman to come out on top over Liston, I'm thinking a 3 to 4 round most ideal window for George. I think Liston had the skills and physical wares to hang with George for that period and then really begin to pull away by virtue of his greater boxing skills and stamina. Thats not to dismiss the less likely possibility of Liston getting George himself in some real trouble in the very early rounds, which might see Foreman off early, but it would take a fair barrage of Liston power shots to KO/stop Foreman that early. Prime v prime, it would've been a helluva fight, that's for sure.

 

I'm thinking you misread my post Ferg.....maybe lol