Sonny Liston is Joe Fraizers worst nightmare

Liston is a really bad option for Fraser.
Excellent job, great reach, strong punches, about 10 pounds more and Liston has a bigger repertoire of punches.
The only things Frazier is better at are left hooks and head moves.

 

A fair component to the extent of Foreman’s success in Jamaica was his shoving off of Frazier - a tactic that was multi purposed and highly successful in each of its objectives.

I don’t doubt that Liston was very strong but I’ve not seen any fights in which he directly imposed his physicality - at least not as much as Foreman did.

Liston was quite a clean boxer actually, especially in terms keeping a fight open with very little clinching or manhandling.

Liston’s main translations for “strength” were his power (underscored by a heavy, consistent and long jab), his durability and his ever forward movement.

I still see Sonny as a stylistic nightmare for Frazier but not quite exactly in the same way Foreman was - though they do obviously share some common features.

 

This is it. The factor being forgotten here is that Frazier would force Liston into a high gear straight up because of his non stop forward movement. Patterson stood in front of him and was obliterated not once but twice in the blink of an eye. Liston doesn't mind boxing and applying some undercoat before the topcoat but when pushed he responds. He'll employ some jabbing lateral movement but he will soon be forced into top gear. I think he'd get Joe outta there inside 5, maybe as early as 3.

 

What problems? We had a Foreman whose camp wanted him to evolve into a more patient measured fighter while simultaneously Eddie Futch had Frazier boxing and moving and trying to tire Foreman out hence the fight lasting longer. Foreman never looked like losing.

 

I’d have to agree. Foreman’s camp were experimenting with a more patient approach, but was the result ever in doubt? Hardly. Poor Frazier looked like a barrel in there, he was so overweight & demonstrably finished after Manila.

 

Foreman - Frazier was man vs boy which is insane really given what a great fighter Frazier was.

 

Crazy that Joe, at 224 1/2 lbs, actually weighed 1/2 lb more than George for that fight.

Especially since Joe’s plan was to accent on greater movement and better, overall evasion.

Perhaps Joe wanted (impossibly) the best of both worlds - maybe hoping that the added weight would add to his power.

Joe did catch George with a couple of his patent, whistling, flush left hooks - but Foreman didn’t blink which, just imo, was proof that Foreman already had some chin during his first career.

Foreman remained relatively disciplined for the most part but he did begin to revert to type, starting to push and shove Joe after a several rounds - Foreman might’ve even copped a warning for same but I’m not 100%.

Whatever Joe’s perceived successes were in the rematch (for one, simply lasting a bit longer than he did Jamaica), those successes were muddied by Foreman’s own more patient strategy - which basically met Joe’s own objectives part way.

To crystallise the point with a question - was Joe lasting a bit longer than 2 rounds more about Frazier’s strategy and performance - or was it more about George’s.

Just imo, I would say the latter.

 

Didn’t look to me like he’d gained weight in a calculated way. He was simply heavily overweight & out of shape. One thing I always say though is that, for all the talk of how much smarter Ali supposedly was, only one of them had the good sense to know the writing was on the wall for both of them after Manila, & get out quickly accordingly.

 

If Ali was knocked out by Foreman without being competitive straight after Manila he maaaaaaaay have had a different perspective. He did come back post Holmes tho.

 

He already knew better after Manila but couldn’t give up the limelight. & possibly needed the money. Not a good decision to go on health-wise, though.

 

Yeah it's an addiction for many.

 

This fountain of knowledge had Bonavena virtually dominating Ali in their fight, an opinion shared by ONE other person. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/bonavena-vs-ali-who-was-winning-going-into-the-15th.684298/

He's also a known troll by his own admission.

That one could be used to describe you as well.

How's that for someone who "knows so much about the sport"?

But I suppose when it comes to how low you set the bar, anyone is a genius in comparison.

I've always wondered, how many permabanned accounts do you and Kamikaze have between you?

 

Frazier's success in the rematch was primarily due to Foreman's style change. If he wanted to, he could've easily replicated his performance in the first fight, and in fact improved upon it, with a first round stoppage given Frazier's condition.

Foreman's second career where he was as different a fighter as the mind can conceive.

 

Bonavena was almost dominating Ali and if Bonavena didn't gassed he would beat Ali because Ali wasn't in shape.

Just go to training section, you would realize how much he knows, more than you'll ever know.

 

No he isn't because Foreman is the bigger man, more agressibe and cuts ring better while Sonny was a boxer puncher.

FOTC Frazier vs prime Liston is 50/50, Liston early or Joe late.