Sonny liston is overrated.

Yes he did, he was out of shape.

He was overtrained for the Patterson fight because he almost went to jail for false accusation.

 

Ali said that Liston was powerful, scary and good athlete but not mention of greatness or anything OTHER hypes made by Liston fanboys.

 

I agree to an extent.. for all his mythical status his record isn't hugely impressive, yes he obliterated chinny Patterson twice but he had 20lbs on him & huge reach advantage.. & Floyd was coming off that brutal trilogy with Johansson..

Other than that you have Machen & Folley.. good but not great fighters .. Cleveland Williams? Again a good contender but doesn't have any great wins imo .. 54 fights & his best win is Patterson who he significantly outsized.

Great jab, powerful fighter, menacing presence, had an excellent career.. but i personally don't think he was as great as many others do.

 

You have to really squint and want to believe with all your heart to make him an “ATG” or H2H special with evidence - it’s not as simple as “who did he beat?” It’s like people who want Marciano to be a H2H monster they jump a lot of hoops. Liston is a so-so replaceable HW the guys he beat weren’t that good and a ton of guys could do it.

 

His reputation on here really began a couple decades ago when people tried to portray him as a stronger, more skilled, more durable, harder hitting George Foreman with stamina. Fearsome tales were told about his jab -- the same sorts of things people did with Marciano. Knocking out teeth, etc. And they'd tell the usual sparring stories, dig up quotes of his feats; the usual.

Although there's been some glasnost on criticism of Foreman recently, I think in Liston's case the fan defenses of him compared to Foreman were overblown. Big George was better head to head than 60s-Harry-Wills. As was Louis; see the other thread comparing their title reigns.

 

I’m always amused when people use titles instead of names “Liston beat the undisputed champion 2x in under a round” a guy who went straight at him, a guy he outweighed by 20lbs… who some think was a natural MW and most believe is the chinniest man to hold the title? That’s without going to the prehistoric days. Machen also can’t be believed for being injured because that’s probably Listons best win and example of fighting a decent boxer (a guy he also again outweighed by 23lbs…) we have no doctors certificate to say he had an injured right just film of him not using it effectively or scantly in the bout… LISTON wasn’t always the bigger guy! He fought Cleveland Williams the ATG bodybuilder with losses to Bob Satterfield (5 years into his career he started at 14 and was 20 so 6 years into boxing… remember the Rocky debate?) A green Ernie Terrell barely beat him, lost the first time and he drew with Machen (his highest positive result) his career is based off Terrell who he was huge compared to, a draw with Machen who he also dwarfed and 2x of losses to Liston LOL so Listons got a glass chinned Folley as his purest win next to Patterson another guy he dwarfed (17lbs) this is Foreman but with Louis’s skills? You’re right to point out he has a Marciano like hysterical following who use “feats” more then facts or misdirect with fancy terms, cold reality suggests he was a big guy who ran over little guys and a not very good Williams only to be beaten easily by Ali who struggled with Bonavena, Douglas, Cooper a helluva lot more LOL. With two training camps factual training taking place since 1969 he was as close to form as he’d ever been and no less then the one who fought Frazier when he was struggling with Bonavena.

 

seen him train dead quiet and no play liston was a rhino. people forget. came up hard. got buried by politics, not skill.