Sonny liston is overrated.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ListontheTrash, Aug 9, 2024.


  1. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

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    Sonny Liston had been suffering from Bursitis for close to a year before the first Ali
    fight and needed cortisone shots.In training he exacerbated the condition in his left
    shoulder and had to use heavy icing and ultrasound therapy after each training session.
    No modern fighter would enter the ring under these conditions.
    During the fight Sonny sustained a torn tendon.This plus the existing condition of
    Bursitis forced Sonny to retire.Hardly quitting is it ? Why on earth do you refuse to
    give Sonny credit for fighting on with a broken jaw in the Marshall fight ?
    As for these tired old accusations of Liston's corner deliberately blinding his
    opponents Angelo Dundee said it was highly likely that the liniment got into Ali's
    eyes accidently.Care to name the ' several ' oppnents who say Liston's corner
    also tried to blind them ?
    Again, why on earth are you saying Johansson defeated Patterson more emphatically
    because Ingemar knocked him down with one punch while Liston took several punches to
    ko Floyd ? It took seven knockdowns before Patterson was stopped by Johansson.
    If Liston needed several punches to stop Patterson then how many punches did Johansson
    need to stop Floyd ? Just a minor detail but it did take Ingemar three rounds to do what Sonny
    accomplished in one.
    A guy called Evander Holyfield also started out as a light-heavyweight.Just thought I'd
    mention that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2024
  2. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Marciano got his nose busted in a half and won, Frazier went on Manilla half blind, one handed and high blood pressure and won.

    Enough of excuses for showing no heart please.

    Because Marshall is a bum half of his size while Marciano and Frazier fought top notch guys with bad health condition.
    Who's Marshall...no one!.

    Dundee maybe said but Ali never reclaimed what he said and refused to support what Dundee said.
    Machen,Valdez, Folley...Ali wasn't the first one who was blinded.

    Ingo dropped Patterson with one punch also knocked Machen in first round which no one couldn't, not even your hero Liston who had teouble with Machen.

    Holyfield was always a cruiser never a LHW, and it is stupid to compare Holyfield one of the best fighters ever with some c level contender Martin.
     
  3. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    True dat! :lol:
     
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  4. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    :lol: Not agro but sometimes the inane comments of some posters are impossible to ignore. You’ve dissected BF at every turn - but it seems he’s been inoculated against and completely immune to well rationalised and fact based arguments. :lol:
     
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  5. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

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    I know what you mean Pug.Of course we're all entitled to our opinions but sometimes
    as you say the comments are so outrageous a response is called for.
    I will continue in my righteous mission to convert the likes of BF2002 !
     
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  6. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

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    It took courage for Liston to continue fighting with a broken jaw.No matter what status Marshall
    had as a fighter.Why are you so obsessed with the word ' bum ' ? Apparently in your opinion unless
    a fighter is an elite ATG he is a so-called ' bum '.This is just plain stupid.
    If you care to look at the footage of Liston vs Machen you will see that at no point during the bout that
    Machen had any trouble with his eyes.No trouble whatsoever.Why did Machen wait FOUR years
    after the fight to make these accusations ? What Machen had to say about Liston's team blinding him
    has to be taken with several barrels of salt.Your source for saying Valdez and Folley made similar
    accusations ? You do seem to be picking names out of the air.
    I can't believe you're persisting with Johansson's performance in the first Patterson fight to use
    as evidence he was superior to Liston.It took Ingemar two more rounds and several more punches
    to accomplish what Sonny did in both of his fights with Patterson.Are you sure you want to continue
    with this line of argument ?
    As for comparing Liston's and Johansson's performance against Machen are you sure you want to
    go there ? How about we compare their respective performances against Floyd Patterson ? I'll
    leave that up to you !
    More inaccuracies from you.Holyfield debuted as a light-heavyweight.Holyfield initially campaigned as a heavyweight at around 202lbs.
    Not too different from the Leotis Martin's 199lbs,whom you ironically ( and of course
    inaccurately ) dismissed as a light-heavyweight.You focused on the comparatively light weight
    of Martin,what's so stupid about making the comparison between him and Holyfield ?
     
  7. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Good luck man. If you succeed, I will be calling you the Miracle Worker. :D
     
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  8. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It did not because it was not Rocky Marciano fighting Ezzard who is one of the best fighters of all time or Frazier fighting Ali, unlike Liston who fought man twice his size who was also a bum.
    He was not even a good journeyman and Liston got his jaw broken so it does not display any heart because that same heart failed against better guys when he blinded them and quit.

    So you know better than Machen and all other guys are lying just because they hurt your hero reputation?
    So Machen, Ali, Valdez and Folley said about blinding and they are all lying or it is all coincidence?
    It is stupid to even think Liston team did not that on purpose because they did it.

    Patterson claimed Ingemar hit him the hardest and Ingo knocked with less punches than Liston.
    Liston also struggled with Machen and blinded him while Ingo knocked Machen in 1st round.

    Holyfiled unlike Martin never fought as a MW Holyfield was natural cruiserweright and small HW while Martin was Lhw at best.

    Because Holyfield was bigger man and never fought as a MW even in amateurs unlike Leotis Martin.
     
  9. SonnyListon>

    SonnyListon> #1 Sonny Liston fan Full Member

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    Hella yap
     
  10. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

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    You are making absolutely no sense.A broken jaw is a broken jaw.No matter who the opponent is.
    Plus it was only Liston's eight professional fight.For such an inexperienced fighter to continue under these
    circumstances showed tremdous courage.Quite frankly you're attempts to downplay Sonny's courage
    is downright stupid.
    Again please look at footage of the Liston vs Machen fight.There is absolutely no evidence of Machen
    suffering any discomfort in his eyes.No evidence whatsoever.
    Again why did it take Machen a whopping FOUR years to make these accusations ? How about he was
    simply jumping on the bandwagon after the fuss in Liston vs Ali fight.So I guess you know better than
    Angelo Dundee ?
    Again please provide sources that Valdez and Folley made similar accusations.
    Why on earth are you quoting that Patterson said Johansson hit him harder than Liston? The fact
    is Liston destroyed Patterson twice in under a round while in Johansson's only win over Patterson
    it took him three rounds ?
    Tell you what ,if you think Johansson did better against Patterson than Liston did have a look at the
    other two Patterson vs Johansson fights.You might learn something ( although I'm not too hopeful ).
     
  11. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It does matter who you are fighting because fighting with a broken jaw with someone as big and as good as Frazier or someone like bum Marshall who was a LHW is not the same.
    Again his heart failed against Ali and cheating against other fighters which proves my point.
    His courage is so big that he **** himself in the two biggest fights of his life and blinded several opponents he fought.

    There is no evidence that Marciano had eye discomfort too but he was blinded, also Machen was not lying he just did not wanted to make big deal and criticized Ali for making a big deal of that he was blinded.
    What Dundee said is not valid because Ali never denied what he said like Machen did not denied what he said.

    YET Johansson beat him even worse than Liston and almost killed him plus he got Machen in 1st rounds and he killed him almost too.

    YES He did because he knocked him easier than Liston.
     
  12. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I read it in Boxing Babylon by Nigel Collins.
     
  13. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

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    No,no,no.You are simply repeating the same daft statements time and time again.Marciano's trainer was aware that Rocky had a substance in his eyes.It was referred to immediately after the fight.There was no such reference to Machen being blinded.
    Are you seriously saying that Machen was blinded but he decided to keep quiet it for a
    whopping FOUR years ? How can you be so naive ?
    I have given the back story to Liston's fight with Ali.The man was injured,plain and simple.Cowards do not achieve any degree of success in boxing,never mind become world-champions.To accuse Sonny of lacking heart is just plain dumb.
    Quite frankly your posts are beginning to look more and more like word-salads.Your analysis of 'what Dundee said,Ali never denied,Machen never denied blah,blah'blah ' is laughable.
    I just can't believe you pitching Johansson's performances against Patterson as evidence he was better than Liston.
    It was Patterson who damn nearly killed Johansson in their second fight.Are you sure you're not getting Patterson and Johansson confused with each other ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2024
  14. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Machen never bragged about that he just said that he kept his mouth closed about blinding unlike Muhammad who was for Machen weak for saying that he was blinded.
    Machen never used that as an excuses but he was indeed blinded.

    So many excuses, so many fighters went injured in the ring and no one quit the way Sonny did.
    Patterson went to fight Ali with broken back also Quarry fought Ellis with broken back and no one quit unlike Sonny.

    Ali said that it was on purpose and I would agree with Ali just like I would agree with Machen.
    You really think more than 2 guys would claim that they were blinded and that was not on purpose, then you are idiot.

    Why you bring second fight if we are talking about first fight?
    Ingo did better than Liston against Patterson and Machen, I dont know that that bothers you that much,maybe because someone did better than your hero?
     
  15. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

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    Unfortunately there is no footage of these fights.Again,why was there no reference to either of these fighers suffering discomfort in their eyes ?