Sonny Liston KO 3 Nino Valdes 1959

Your right. Valdes hadn't taken on Alonzo Johnson yet. The defense against London was on May 1. The fight between Valdes and Johnson was on May 29.

I am certain that Valdes had dropped out of the ratings by the time he fought Liston which was in August because I remember the write-up done by Nat Fleischer in TV Guide which always included the total records of the fighters as well as their current ratings (with unranked if not ranked) and Valdes was unranked. It has been 55 years since I read up on this upcoming fight but my memory is that Liston was then ranked #4.

I watched the fight. My memory (and don't forget this is after 55 years) is that Liston backed up Valdes against the ropes and hit him a left-right combo. I remember the right mainly. Valdes dropped straight down the ropes into a sitting position. He was sitting there as the count went by with a trickle of blood coming out of the left side of his mouth and going down his chin. At about eight or nine he tried to get up, but his gloves were still on the canvas at ten.

By the way, I was watching this fight on a 21 inch black and white Philco. Not like a modern HD TV.

*I don't think there was any chance of Valdes getting the shot at Patterson after his KO loss to Powell, regardless of ranking, until he won a couple. The network wouldn't have bought it. Powell would then actually have been the more logical challenger. I have to look at London's record over at boxrec, but if memory serves he had lost his last fight to Cooper.

 

All this might tell you more about the Euros than it does about Valdes, really.

After all from late 1952 to the Liston fight he lost to Moore twice, Baker twice, Harold Johnson by a shutout, Bill Gilliam, Bob Satterfield, Eddie Machen twice, Zora Folley, Alex Miteff, Charley Powell, and Alonzo Johnson.

Valdes is going to be a hard sell as a contender to the American public, and listing Euros obscure for the most part to Americans won't do it.

I can see how the undefeated Harris, with some good wins, would be an easier sell to the public, and the fight did draw well.

And, by the way, Harris performed better against Bob Baker and Charley Powell than Valdes did. It might be dubious that Valdes was the better fighter from 1956 on.

 

Well, he had Patterson's #, that's for sure. Liston was good, actually he was great, but he's one of those guys who tends to get overrated on this forum.

On the way up he had tough fights with Johnny Summerlin x2 and Marty Marshall. He went 2-1 vs. Marshall and suffered a broken jaw in the loss, Marshall was little more than a LHW.

He stopped Cleveland Williams x2, Zora Folley, and Patterson x2. He decisioned Eddie Machen in a competitive fight. Williams was nothing special to be honest. Folley was a good boxer but not the most durable. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ in history (look it up if you don't believe me). Ali made him look slow and predictable.

Liston was much bigger than most of the guys he fought. Folley and Machen were roughly 6' and 200 Lbs, Machen was more durable than Folley though. Patterson was close in size to these guys as well but a bit lighter. Williams was taller and close in weight to Liston but in my opinion one of the most overrated HW contenders of all-time.

I'm not saying Liston wasn't great, but let's not pretend that he did more than what he actually did. Nino? Nino wasn't all that special on his best day. When Nino fought Liston it was far from his best day. That win means very little to me.

So, let's pretend Liston beat Patterson in 1959. Maybe Liston defends against Johansson. Johansson was very good. He stopped Machen in the 1st round and Patterson in the 3rd round. Sure, Patterson stopped him twice as well. Liston wins, probably by KO, but it's not easy.

Tom McNeeley wouldn't stand a chance against Liston. Mcneeley was down 11 times vs. Patterson and was stopped in the 4th round.

Liston did stop Roy Harris in the 1st round in 1960. Harris lost by 12th round KO to Patterson in 1958.

Brian London wasn't anything special. Patterson stopped him in the 11th, Machen in the 5th, Ali stopped him in the 3rd a few years later.

Maybe rematches with Folley and Machen?

Who else could Liston have fought prior to Ali? There wasn't a fighter around that could have properly prepared Liston for Ali.

Pad the stats however you want, Ali is still kicking his azs.

 

Good post.

Prior to Ali I think Ernie Terrell, Doug Jones and Eddie machen would have been good prep for Liston against Ali. They certainly would not have been blow outs for Liston giving him more rounds and much needed competition.

 

In 1959 Johansson was some fighter by anyone's standard. He knocked out the two best heavyweights in the world and neither fighter had been knocked out before. On that form I think it is silly to say ingo was not in another fighters league, in fact he was setting the standard.

Why should ingo v Williams be more competative? Williams drew with the same guy machen knocked out in a single round.

I don't think ingo was ever that good again but in 1959 he set the standard.

 

Ingo does not match up well with Liston. He's not the boxer nor the puncher in the match.

 

Yet in 1959 trial horse willi Besmanoff with an American record of 5-11 in his last 16 stood on his feet and lasted all the way into round 7 against Liston before he got stopped on a cut??

 

Good in their day... not all-time good though. Summerlin and Marshall were early in his career but let's not pretend that he didn't struggle with these men. Good? No, neither was really that good. They were also not big men, especially Marshall who was about 180 Lbs.

DeJohn, Harris, Nino, even Williams... I stand by what I said. Who did they beat? Williams' best performances were KO7 Ernie Terrrell and D10 Eddie Machen. He lost a SD to Terrell in their rematch. He was stopped by Bob Satterfield (KO3). Williams was a late sub vs. Satterfield. Williams beat a lot of dudes with losing records and a bunch who were close to a .500 avg. Frankie Daniels x2, Wayne Bethea, Billy Daniels x2 and Alex Miteff... the only one he stopped was Miteff (KO5).

Yes, Machen and Folley were very good though. I really liked them both. Machen and Folley would make good CWs but were too small too compete well with the likes of Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, and others.

 

I know this is all true... but good at that moment and good "all-time" are two different things. In retrospect beating Miteff doesn't mean much, it meant something at the time though.

Kinda like Lennox Lewis beating Michael Grant or Ken Norton beating Duane Bobick or even Boone Kirkman.

 

I don't know how anyone can know for sure. I give Sonny the edge but ingo with his 1959 form could have been a real danger to Liston who often got clocked with right hands. Whitehurst, marshal, Ali, Folley and later martin were successful with right hand counters ..... ingo's party trick!